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[0:00]so has been sitting on my shelf and I've been itching to
[0:03]read it but I just not had the fortitude to to pick
[0:06]it up but I think it's a very poignant discussion for that
[0:09]and just in 2020 Professor frin was named one of the fifth
[0:15]most influential political scientists in the world so y'all know what to
[0:27]do when I bring him out right [Music] ladies and gentlemen Professor
[0:38]Norman P thank you for coming in [Applause] [Applause] from The River
[1:22]To The Sea well thank you for having me um unfortunately because
[1:30]of the playing delays I won't have nearly as much time as
[1:35]I hope this evening however we do have the option [Music] of
[1:54]well we have the option of maximizing the productivity this evening so
[2:03]I think the agreement was that would be asked a few questions
[2:07]by the person who introduced me and then I'll hear from you
[2:13]I'll do my best not to repeat what I've said I with
[2:19]the past eight months to talk about uh new uh new material
[2:22]and with that we should begin well uh we telling me in
[2:29]the back uh Dr fle that June 6 1982 is the very
[2:36]beginning of your sort of Consciousness on the Israeli issue in the
[2:40]academic lens can you share a little bit about what drove you
[2:45]to actually begin to do all the work that you have done
[2:47]over the last several decades I'm going to try to be as
[2:53]brief as possible I was always from a very young age I
[2:57]was involved in politics that was not unusual in the 19 1960s
[3:01]uh politics was in the air and politics was constantly a subject
[3:13]of debate and often uh heed disagreement the main issues in that
[3:18]era were of course the war in Vietnam and domestically the Civil
[3:22]Rights Movement later to be called Black Power movement um I knew
[3:30]about palestin you about Israel and Palestine but I can't say I
[3:34]was well educated on the subject read a few books uh and
[3:39]then came in June 1982 uh the Lebanon war uh and I
[3:47]became I was an active participant in opposing the war and uh
[3:53]at that point I began to seriously read on the subject and
[4:00]once I began to seriously reading the subject I decid maybe I
[4:05]would write my doctoral dissertation on the topic which I did so
[4:10]now I had an intellectual commitment to the subject I had a
[4:19]political commitment to the subject and being Jewish I had a personal
[4:22]colle connection to the topic and the all three converged now sometimes
[4:30]people think I have an obsession with the topic because it's a
[4:37]lot of time has elapsed nearly now I guess it's approximately 40
[4:43]41 or 42 years uh but it's really not an obsession I
[4:49]think it would be more correct to call it a certain stubbornness
[4:54]namely the conflict never found a resolution had found the resolution I
[5:01]probably would have been politically engaged in something else but the conflict
[5:08]endures from when I first entered it in 1982 and I'm not
[5:17]a quitter so I persist it's true factually that by not by
[5:26]2020 I did give up I thought the thing was absolutely hopeless
[5:33]and the books I was writing were becoming more and more and
[5:42]more and more detailed and I was losing any audience that I
[5:47]had so the last book I wrote uh on a very narrow
[5:55]topic having to do with GSA it only sold 350 copies iies
[6:00]according to my Ed my publisher and of those 350 I purchased
[6:08]half so it wasn't it wasn't a very good showing uh actually
[6:14]the book turned out to be at this very moment it turned
[6:20]out to be topical by a strange uh Twist of Faith the
[6:26]book was uh called I accuse and it was directed at the
[6:32]person who was then the chief prosecutor of the international criminal court
[6:38]a woman named Fatu B suda from The Gambia and the essence
[6:47]of the book was to say that Fatu vuda was a crook
[6:52]and she had conducted herself uh in a very uh corrupt way
[6:59]during the ICC the international criminal court hearings that had to do
[7:05]with Gaza and then it came out last week that in fact
[7:15]Israeli intelligence agencies had been trying to Blackmail Fu Ben suda uh
[7:22]in my opinion uh they were successful in blackmailing her and I'll
[7:29]have more to say about about that in the future so that
[7:33]book they actually hit 400 [Music] sales and of half of course
[7:43]I will purchase myself so so if if we can just go
[7:51]back to your to your Beginnings because your parents I first learned
[7:55]of you uh after operation protective Edge I was in I was
[7:58]a college this know uh where I think many of us have
[8:04]seen it where you were sharing the story about your parents surviving
[8:09]alits and you weren't going to let them weaponize the Holocaust in
[8:14]Zionism how how does someone whose parents grew up Surviving the Holocaust
[8:20]Coming to America not have Israel and the concept of of Zionism
[8:28]which develops right after that to be at the Forefront of your
[8:32]upbringing was it not why was it not something I was Ed
[8:36]I got to tell you I have roommates in college one of
[8:40]them grew up Jewish one of them discovered his his ancestors uh
[8:44]were were in the Holocaust and uh became a very St Zionist
[8:47]so I'm curious what is it about your upbringing that did not
[8:52]lead you towards that direction the simple answer to that question is
[8:59]experience in and of itself does not determine any single answer to
[9:10]that experience two people can go through the identical experience and come
[9:16]out with totally different conclusions from that experience so in the case
[9:21]of the Nazi Holocaust basically you could say there were two kinds
[9:28]of conclusions people drew one was was never again to Jews that
[9:33]uh we will now look after our own and uh we will
[9:42]do whatever needs to be done to defend our own so that
[9:48]was the never again the Jews and my impression is I could
[9:52]be wrong most Jews who passed through the Nazi Holocaust came to
[9:58]that conclusion but there was another group group of people who came
[10:02]to the conclusion never again to anybody so they passed to the
[10:09]exact same conclusion excuse me the exact same experience where they walked
[10:14]away saying that uh everybody who is suffering oppression is worthy of
[10:24]and deserving of uh support and I would say not to IDE
[10:29]idealized my parents they had many imperfections and one of the sad
[10:38]parts of getting older is you begin to discover in your own
[10:42]Mind's Eye all the imperfections they had um not to say I
[10:52]myself don't suffer from 10,000 imperfections as Gandhi like to say I
[10:58]have 10 th000 flaws and when gandi said it I think he
[11:06]meant it anybody who has self knowledge is aware of how many
[11:11]flaws character flaws they suffer from having said that I would say
[11:20]my parents at least in words in Words they conveyed the right
[11:26]message and that I like my two siblings these apples did not
[11:36]fall far from the tree um there are probably things they would
[11:43]disagree with what I'm disagree with me I don't think there would
[11:52]be any disagreement about what I have to say about gosip I'm
[11:58]very confident that that they would totally agree with me and I
[12:03]have been asked that question the first time I appeared on Pierce
[12:12]Morgan's program he did directly ask me what would my parents think
[12:18]and for me that's a significant question namely I don't want to
[12:28]ever be accused of betraying their memor and I certainly would never
[12:37]want to misrepresent who they were so even if if there is
[12:42]a disagreement I will express it I would say my parents would
[12:45]not agree with me on this but I don't believe as I
[12:51]said to Pierce Morgan and then I checked with my brother one
[12:57]of my brothers I did call him and ask him for an
[13:01]honest assessment what would Mom and Dad have said and there was
[13:09]a concurrence between us on the question of Gaza there would be
[13:13]as the expression has it there would be no daylight between us
[13:19]so I'm confident of that fact my parents had different different personalities
[13:27]and they didn't end up getting divorce although at the end of
[13:32]their lives they came back together because they both suffered from quite
[13:35]horrible terminal illnesses but I remember my mother once saying however much
[13:42]your father and I disagreed about 10,000 Things strangely enough you never
[13:48]disagreed about politics their politics were a little strange but strange for
[13:57]me in a very positive way because uh my parents as I
[14:04]said in all their floors always keeping in mind that mine are
[14:10]many more than theirs for all their floors one thing I could
[14:19]say with certainty my parents could not be bought they could not
[14:25]be purchased and there were many moments where those they they were
[14:29]there were opportunities to capitalize on their experience during World War II
[14:37]but if it was at the cost of saying something they didn't
[14:42]believe they would into it there was no way so you were
[14:52]I'm going to reference your interview from Case Western back in 2008
[14:56]you'd actually um spoke about two weeks before the invasion onza in
[15:06]December right before President Obama and there was a lot more optimism
[15:14]on your part in trying to figure out the ways in which
[15:21]folks can engage those that were shunly Zion this and then we've
[15:29]seen over the several years that there was seven reignited that but
[15:35]what shifts between 08 and 2020 in terms of the optimism you
[15:39]had towards continuing to wor this issue well uh this particular question
[15:45]historical perspective is very important so let's just take a couple of
[15:51]examples when Israel Lebanon in 1982 actually up until Gaza after October
[16:01]7th it was the worst blood leing of any Israeli Invasion now
[16:08]that's completely forgotten between June and September the estimates are that Israel
[16:17]killed between 15 and 20,000 Palestinians and leane overwhelmingly civilians if you
[16:30]take operation cast Le to which you were referring operation castled it
[16:39]was approximately 1,400 people killed of whom about 1,200 were civilians 350
[16:46]children protective Edge which was seen correctly in my view as a
[16:56]real horror show it was still on the order of about 20
[16:59]200 Palestinians killed uh the numbers on civilians vary but that they
[17:08]all all those numbers pale in comparison to what Israel did in
[17:17]Lebanon in 1982 now each time there has been a massive blood
[17:22]leing be it Lebanon or Gaza each time that there has been
[17:31]a massive blood leing there has been varying reactions among the public
[17:36]it's not been uniform Lebanon represented the first major break in public
[17:46]opinion in the United States but it was mostly limited to left
[17:51]liberal and liberal sectors it's very hard for young people in this
[17:56]audience to imagine but roughly up until the Lebanon war Israel was
[18:05]seen as a leftist cause it was not seen as a conservative
[18:14]or reactionary cause Israel was the land of the K Israel was
[18:20]the land of socialists EMP power most of the original zionists be
[18:27]David Boran or Shimon as they were all seen as at the
[18:30]Left End of the political Spectrum so it was not until Lebanon
[18:39]the public opinion among liberals and left liberals began to shift uh
[18:50]operation castled which began December 26 2008 and ended January 17th 2009
[19:01]for those of you who are uh old enough to remember the
[19:09]demonstrations during castled were very large there was a huge outpouring of
[19:17]support for the Palestinians it felt as if it were a turning
[19:22]point in fact I wrote a book shortly after the Lebanon excuse
[19:31]me shortly after operation castled and the title was taken from an
[19:37]article by the Israeli journalist Gideon Le and the book was called
[19:43]this time we went too far because it seemed as if what
[19:52]Israel was doing in Gaza was on a totally different scale and
[19:57]up until then it was a totally different scale but now when
[20:05]we look back operation castet was really as compared to now it
[20:11]was Small Change by 2014 operation protective Edge which if my memory
[20:24]is Right went from June 7th 2014 to August 26th 2014 it
[20:37]was 51 days U it was the reaction was very muted because
[20:44]the International Community and even the domestic audience had by this time
[20:50]grown in that that just means pardon they had grown endur to
[20:58]Israel's periodic what Israel calls mowings of the lawn in Gaza so
[21:05]the reaction was not very strong the operation protective Ed even though
[21:12]it was a horror show at the time the head of the
[21:20]international Committee of the Red Cross a a person named Peter Mo
[21:24]when he toured Gaza after protective Edge he said never before have
[21:33]I seen the degree of Destruction that I've seen in Gaza and
[21:38]that's quite a statement coming from the head of the icrc the
[21:47]Red Cross but even that just to give you one comparison after
[21:52]operation protective Edge it was estimated that Israel had left behind 2.5
[22:01]million tons of rubbish the current estimate for Gaza is believe it
[22:12]or not as of last month the estimate is 38 million tons
[22:21]of rubbish as a matter of fact one of the I won't
[22:23]call it amusing let's just call it one of the the silly
[22:30]aspects of the current Biden peace plan is it talks about a
[22:37]fiveyear period of Rehabilitation of Gaza construction Rehabilitation of Gaza that's part
[22:44]of the peace but if you read the expert opinion it will
[22:52]take a minimum a minimum of 10 years just to clear away
[22:59]the 10 years because the rubble bear in mind most of God
[23:07]are now three quarters of Gaza by the time Israel completes its
[23:11]operation and Rafa will be the whole of Gaza um it has
[23:19]been reduced to Gaza has been reduced purposely to a howling Wilderness
[23:25]there just nothing there it's not just that people have lost their
[23:31]homes the estimate now is approximately 1.1 million or maybe 1.2 million
[23:43]of the people of Gaza have no home to return to it's
[23:46]not just that people have lost their homes it's that they have
[23:54]no idea where to return because they don't have a block anymore
[24:06]they don't have a neighborhood anymore it's completely unrecognizable there was an
[24:16]interesting story I happened to Lo the person but the chief the
[24:20]chief New York Times correspondent over there his name is Patrick Kingsley
[24:27]and this was about a month or two into Israeli assault on
[24:35]Gaza he was standing in a place or as he describes in
[24:41]the article he's standing in a place and he turned to the
[24:45]Israeli officer next to him and he said where are we and
[24:51]the officer named the place and he said I used to spend
[24:59]a lot of here he had no idea where he was and
[25:04]that's basically what Gaza is now now to return to your question
[25:12]obviously uh after October 7th uh we entered a new phase in
[25:24]many respects but one aspect clearly is the international and the United
[25:29]States the domestic reaction a large part of it a large part
[25:34]of it is simply to obviously to the magnitude of Destruction and
[25:43]to the change nature of the Israeli objective is my opinion having
[25:54]studied it quite closely for a large chunk of my adult life
[25:58]that there's nothing qualitatively different about what Israel is doing in Gaza
[26:07]it always targeted civilians it always targeted schools it always targeted hospitals
[26:18]it always targeted un workers journalists that's not new that's old news
[26:30]the magnitude however has changed and to indicate what has changed in
[26:41]the M magnitude I think an ex a the following expression does
[26:48]indicate the change during Israel's Hightech killing freees in Kaza um castled
[26:57]pillar the protected Edge Israel described it as we're mowing the Lo
[27:07]that was the uh metaphor they used you might note a very
[27:17]sick metaphor because half of Gaza is children so when you talk
[27:26]about taking a mower in into Gaza you're talking about smashing the
[27:36]skulls of children the very fact that that metaphor was so casually
[27:48]used for a population half of whom are children and that it
[28:01]never ever registered how pathological that metaphor is tells you about the
[28:11]sensibility of the main stream society when it came to DM but
[28:20]the difference now is very Stark up until October 7th the goal
[28:28]was to Mo the LA but now the goal is different the
[28:33]goal now is there's a fancy word extra Pate anyone here know
[28:40]what that word means I'm going to be disappointed if nobody knows
[28:44]it's unacceptable there are a lot of young people in this room
[28:47]and I do not accept I I see an old hand in
[28:53]the back I don't want to see one hand there should be
[28:55]many hands up come on guys yes not exactly to destroy you
[29:04]uh yes out stand [Applause] up this is our Arab Muslim Webster
[29:23]can you say it again remove it from the roof yes it
[29:25]means to pull out by the roof and and good for you
[29:34]for that um the goal now is to exate to pull out
[29:41]from the root every blade of grass in Gossip which in the
[29:47]terminology of the current Israeli government which they repeated many many a
[29:54]Time the goal is to make Gaza uninhabitable to make Gaza unlivable
[30:02]and in fact um when I Was preparing the um preparing after
[30:11]October 7th because I had forgotten a lot of the details um
[30:16]I was rereading the book on goip can you just bring it
[30:19]up if you don't mind um thank you so so much and
[30:26]at the very end um here at the very end of the
[30:45]book when I was rereading it I came across uh this uh
[30:48]statement by an Israeli this was 2015 and the Israeli the senior
[30:57]Israeli official he said another War with Gaza is [Music] inevitable we
[31:05]cannot conduct a constant War of Attrition namely keep mowing the lawn
[31:12]keep mowing the lawn he said therefore the next conflict has to
[31:21]be the last conflict and it turned out those weren't my words
[31:29]as the Senor is issue but the words were prophetic that they
[31:33]were not going to keep mowing the lawn the next conflict would
[31:38]be the last conflict and that's their intention now so um there
[31:48]are many aspects of the international reaction and I will be happy
[31:53]during questions and answers to talk about because it said many different
[31:59]levels uh one of the extraordinary aspects of what's happened since October
[32:06]7 is you see it's constantly the center is changing one day
[32:15]it's the international court of justice one day it's the international criminal
[32:20]court one day it's the student demonstrations one day is the extraordinary
[32:29]outpouring of support from un agencies there was a long time when
[32:39]you ried on un agencies for factual data they were very reliable
[32:44]but now you have the UN officials the officials in the World
[32:51]Health Organization the world food program the uh food and agriculture organization
[33:03]a large number they're speaking out with I would have to say
[33:13]an impressive amount of courage and persistence you even have which I
[33:20]can't ever remember before the Secretary General of the UN in this
[33:25]case gutieres who has actually been quite good at the beginning right
[33:30]after October 7th no but it was very tough right after October
[33:35]7th for obvious reasons so the uh the reaction has been at
[33:44]many different levels and in my opinion has been morally very impressive
[33:49]why do I say that because at the end of the day
[33:55]Gaza is a poor powerless stateless people the people of Gaza are
[34:08]poor powerless and stateless so to be in solidarity with the people
[34:15]of Gaza means it's a solidarity without any benefits it's not what
[34:24]they say the Latin expression quck proquo which basically means this for
[34:30]that or you wash my hand I wash yours you scratch my
[34:33]back I scratch your no there is no return for supporting Goa
[34:43]it's pure pristine uncorrupted unblemished solidarity and the fact that there has
[34:52]been such a outpouring of solidarity it's just very on a moral
[35:04]level it's very impressive I don't have to tell any young people
[35:09]in this room how expensive college is I don't have to tell
[35:14]any young people or their parents How concerned everybody is about finding
[35:24]a job after they graduate or How concerned many people in this
[35:33]room are about getting into a good law school a good medical
[35:36]school a good Professional School in light of all those considerations to
[35:45]see the young people on college campuses risking sued as they pursue
[35:57]their professional careers risking not being able to attend as many people
[36:04]young people were not able to attend their graduations all for a
[36:15]poor stateless powerless people halfway around the world and when you consider
[36:24]how many causes young people have good reason to worry about climate
[36:32]change nuclear war an economy that's failing about 80% of our country
[36:42]and they chose of all the challenges facing them all the causes
[36:51]that they could have chosen to invest in the fact that they
[36:58]sees on Gaza and not withstanding the real sacrifices that that entailed
[37:10]and to persist and persist and persists it's a very impressive sight
[37:23]to behold there was an anti-war movement in my generation for sure
[37:28]and I will never deny the moral element the genuine pain that
[37:38]people felt at seeing the systematic destruction and incineration of N and
[37:50]that was all real but and it's not really a but it's
[37:57]just looking at the full picture there was an aspect to the
[38:00]war of a genuine fear of being drafted into it that was
[38:07]not a trivial concern if you were a student you got what
[38:11]was called a 4-year deferment for your college Years but then you
[38:17]were up for being drafted and dying in Vietnam we had in
[38:23]our country at the time what was called a lottery and a
[38:26]lottery basic then it put 365 uh uh n 365 chips in
[38:37]the bag and they pulled out your birth date within the first
[38:44]200 numbers it was a problem later when our involvement began to
[38:51]diminish within the first 150 numbers it was a problem so there
[39:00]was what you can call a self-interest in opposing the war of
[39:05]Vietnam now I don't want anyone to walk away thinking that was
[39:11]the only concern no it was a genuine moral outrage at what
[39:16]was being done to the people of Vietnam but in the case
[39:23]of Gaza the truth is there is no self-interest it's a genuine
[39:33]feeling of solidarity with the people who have been mared I don't
[39:39]like uh just for the record I never promote my book for
[39:45]those of you who see me on YouTube you will notice everybody
[39:47]else they have the book sitting on their back bookshelf behind or
[39:51]they hold it up or they ask the moderator I never do
[39:57]that I don't want to ever be seen as trying to profit
[40:03]from what has been done to the people in Gaza but I'll
[40:05]just mention that when I wrote the book God and inquest into
[40:12]its marm U there were it's a university press and the university
[40:17]press means other professors or experts have to look at the book
[40:22]and there was a objection raised to the title of the book
[40:31]One Professor who's actually well known and supportive of Palestinians he says
[40:38]he said I don't think an academic book should have the word
[40:45]Marr in it it's unacademic and I said to B [Music] [Applause]
[41:00]that's what's been done to the people of Gaza they have been
[41:09]martyred and that reality not everybody knows every detail but after oober
[41:23]7th that reality set in and we have to be Rec we
[41:34]have to be cognizant that public awareness shifts over time cast led
[41:42]a lot of public awareness protective Edge much less and actually the
[41:50]worst showing came in 2018 during gaza's great March of return when
[42:01]they attempted a nonviolent civil resistance to end the blockade of Gaza
[42:10]and even though it was quite horrific what Israel did during the
[42:17]Great March of return it brought in its best snipers lining them
[42:26]up along the perimeter with Gaza and then as the UN report
[42:36]an authoritative un report it runs to 250 pages single space it
[42:42]said that Israel targeted children targeted or to use their language intentionally
[42:55]targeted children intentionally targeted Church J ists intentionally targeted Medics and intentionally
[43:06]targeted disabled people it targeted double utees did they were 300 M
[43:18]away from the perimeter fence they were sitting in a wheelchair they
[43:26]were on crutches and they were targeted um the International Community even
[43:35]the Palestine solidarity Community totally ignored the great March of I don't
[43:40]think there was one demonstration in the United States in support of
[43:43]it um so I think we have to be cognizant that people
[43:53]forget and it's possible that they will forget once the conflict is
[44:03]once the current round is over it's possible people will forget but
[44:12]it's also possible that that Scarlet Letter G for genocide has now
[44:23]been permanently a fix on the state of Israel and that will
[44:27][Music] it will not be washed away even with time it won't
[44:42]be eroded or worn away that's a real I think that's a
[44:46]that Israel uh has now crossed a line even though as I
[44:53]said I thought that was true and castled but Israel has crossed
[44:57]the line from which there were be no return the very fact
[45:02]the very fact that there is a public debate about whether or
[45:09]not Israel's committing genocide represents a completely new level of public awareness
[45:19]you couldn't it was impossible to debate it now some people deny
[45:23]it some people affirm it but the fact that you're having a
[45:28]debate about whether Israel is a genocidal state is something completely new
[45:36]and I think there's a reasonable prospect that it will not go
[45:42]away so you you talk when you talk about debate I want
[45:49]to bring up what is I think one of the greatest academic
[45:56]uh clapbacks I've ever seen is when you uh wrote an entire
[45:59]book to argue against professor jhu's book which I know I know
[46:07]you're from New York so uh Nas's Ether was the greatest rap
[46:11]uh comeback to Jay-Z ever so you and Nas have a very
[46:17]similar uh style in terms of when you want to go after
[46:21]the person you pick the medium in which they tried to come
[46:24]after you uh but not everybody can can do that not every
[46:30]can be Nas I Can Be Dr finlin so for those of
[46:31]us that care about this issue and want to keep fighting this
[46:37]I think there's a couple tensions that arise number one we are
[46:41]seeing the Fidelity of the institutions that you mentioned unra the United
[46:46]Nations the ICC the court of justice anytime there's a disagreement we
[46:52]there's an attempt to delegitimize and we see this happen in the
[46:56]United States I don't like the outcome of the election I'll question
[46:59]the Integrity of the actual voting process how does one navigate that
[47:03]if this seems to be the medium in which people debate Now
[47:08]by just delegitimizing those institutions if that's the first argument that we
[47:12]have to make and then the second Point around the solidarity piece
[47:15]when people cheapen that solidarity to say is rooted in anti-Semitism that
[47:21]the fervor for love of the presant people and the Palestinians is
[47:27]actually subliminally because of the hatred that folks may have of the
[47:31]Jewish people so how can one navigate that and and I'll give
[47:37]you a threepiece uh a lot of young folks are are protesting
[47:40]and I know when you visited Colombia you gave some sound advice
[47:43]that there has to be an an ability to engage in a
[47:48]way that continues to bring people and not alienate so the style
[47:52]in which folks protest the way in which people discuss the issues
[47:55]there has to be a calculus to continue to build the pro
[48:01]peace Pro Palestine uh perspective so I know you have a memory
[48:04]like Zach so I believe you're going to answer all those questions
[48:07]and if you don't know Zach is is a famous theology in
[48:12]the Muslim Community who can site any page any verse of of
[48:15]any text he discusses similar to your style [Music] that I have
[48:22]all those questions bres through in my mind you said that [Music]
[48:31]um I I I will go through them come just don't tell
[48:46]me oh okay the first question uh has to do with what
[48:56]kinds of sources do you use to convince people and there there
[49:00]has been a very dramatic change since October 7th up until October
[49:05]7th those who try to convey a true picture about what's going
[49:12]on they generally relied on the human rights organizations adest the international
[49:17]Human Rights Watch there was the Israeli information center for human rights
[49:25]in the occupied territories called thatum and there the Palestinian human rights
[49:29]organizations and that was the main source of evidence because they appear
[49:36]to be neutral and professional the argument is if you accept what
[49:44]Human Rights Watch has to say about uh cashmir and if you
[49:50]accept what Human Rights Watch has to say about um the Kurds
[49:53]then why don't you accept what they have to say about is
[50:00]in Palestine but since October 7 it's a very noticeable fact for
[50:05]people like myself who read the factual data that if you for
[50:10]example look at the South Africa application to the international court of
[50:17]justice it's 84 Pages it has literally hundreds of footnotes and many
[50:29]of the footnotes have many sources in a footnote so it's a
[50:34]huge undertaking by the South African government what struck me most was
[50:45]they didn't use human rights organizations they just cited un sources and
[50:53]un was always considered to be a objective sources they're very professional
[50:59]they are they're a very professional organization and they're generally not swayed
[51:07]by personal or partisan conviction they are accurate and it was a
[51:20]real eyeopener for me to see that now the whole um bureaucratic
[51:26]institutional um Network every organization as I mentioned earlier that you know
[51:33]everybody knows who World Health Organization everybody here knows Unice everybody here
[51:42]knows um let me take another common well you know but orra
[51:52]was always seen as a little partisan I'm just taking the most
[51:58]you know the World Bank the international monetary fund and they were
[52:04]coming out with these very sharp statements and that to me it
[52:12]was a nice thing to see people found their moral voice they
[52:20]found their spine they found their backbone you even see a significant
[52:26]not overwhelming but a significant number of defections Even in our own
[52:32]US State Department of people who are saying we cannot accept producing
[52:41]or publishing lies about what's going on on in Gaza under our
[52:47]name and they have left their job some publicly others privately so
[52:56]I would say at this particular point in time there is no
[53:03]lack of sources and factual evidence to draw on it's a very
[53:12]impressive case that has been made most notably by South Africa in
[53:21]the international court of justice now that leads us to the second
[53:27]question which is the question of um trying to delegitimize what's being
[53:38]what's now
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