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12 المشاهدات· 24/06/21

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[0:00]so has been sitting on my shelf and I've been itching to

[0:03]read it but I just not had the fortitude to to pick

[0:06]it up but I think it's a very poignant discussion for that

[0:09]and just in 2020 Professor frin was named one of the fifth

[0:15]most influential political scientists in the world so y'all know what to

[0:27]do when I bring him out right [Music] ladies and gentlemen Professor

[0:38]Norman P thank you for coming in [Applause] [Applause] from The River

[1:22]To The Sea well thank you for having me um unfortunately because

[1:30]of the playing delays I won't have nearly as much time as

[1:35]I hope this evening however we do have the option [Music] of

[1:54]well we have the option of maximizing the productivity this evening so

[2:03]I think the agreement was that would be asked a few questions

[2:07]by the person who introduced me and then I'll hear from you

[2:13]I'll do my best not to repeat what I've said I with

[2:19]the past eight months to talk about uh new uh new material

[2:22]and with that we should begin well uh we telling me in

[2:29]the back uh Dr fle that June 6 1982 is the very

[2:36]beginning of your sort of Consciousness on the Israeli issue in the

[2:40]academic lens can you share a little bit about what drove you

[2:45]to actually begin to do all the work that you have done

[2:47]over the last several decades I'm going to try to be as

[2:53]brief as possible I was always from a very young age I

[2:57]was involved in politics that was not unusual in the 19 1960s

[3:01]uh politics was in the air and politics was constantly a subject

[3:13]of debate and often uh heed disagreement the main issues in that

[3:18]era were of course the war in Vietnam and domestically the Civil

[3:22]Rights Movement later to be called Black Power movement um I knew

[3:30]about palestin you about Israel and Palestine but I can't say I

[3:34]was well educated on the subject read a few books uh and

[3:39]then came in June 1982 uh the Lebanon war uh and I

[3:47]became I was an active participant in opposing the war and uh

[3:53]at that point I began to seriously read on the subject and

[4:00]once I began to seriously reading the subject I decid maybe I

[4:05]would write my doctoral dissertation on the topic which I did so

[4:10]now I had an intellectual commitment to the subject I had a

[4:19]political commitment to the subject and being Jewish I had a personal

[4:22]colle connection to the topic and the all three converged now sometimes

[4:30]people think I have an obsession with the topic because it's a

[4:37]lot of time has elapsed nearly now I guess it's approximately 40

[4:43]41 or 42 years uh but it's really not an obsession I

[4:49]think it would be more correct to call it a certain stubbornness

[4:54]namely the conflict never found a resolution had found the resolution I

[5:01]probably would have been politically engaged in something else but the conflict

[5:08]endures from when I first entered it in 1982 and I'm not

[5:17]a quitter so I persist it's true factually that by not by

[5:26]2020 I did give up I thought the thing was absolutely hopeless

[5:33]and the books I was writing were becoming more and more and

[5:42]more and more detailed and I was losing any audience that I

[5:47]had so the last book I wrote uh on a very narrow

[5:55]topic having to do with GSA it only sold 350 copies iies

[6:00]according to my Ed my publisher and of those 350 I purchased

[6:08]half so it wasn't it wasn't a very good showing uh actually

[6:14]the book turned out to be at this very moment it turned

[6:20]out to be topical by a strange uh Twist of Faith the

[6:26]book was uh called I accuse and it was directed at the

[6:32]person who was then the chief prosecutor of the international criminal court

[6:38]a woman named Fatu B suda from The Gambia and the essence

[6:47]of the book was to say that Fatu vuda was a crook

[6:52]and she had conducted herself uh in a very uh corrupt way

[6:59]during the ICC the international criminal court hearings that had to do

[7:05]with Gaza and then it came out last week that in fact

[7:15]Israeli intelligence agencies had been trying to Blackmail Fu Ben suda uh

[7:22]in my opinion uh they were successful in blackmailing her and I'll

[7:29]have more to say about about that in the future so that

[7:33]book they actually hit 400 [Music] sales and of half of course

[7:43]I will purchase myself so so if if we can just go

[7:51]back to your to your Beginnings because your parents I first learned

[7:55]of you uh after operation protective Edge I was in I was

[7:58]a college this know uh where I think many of us have

[8:04]seen it where you were sharing the story about your parents surviving

[8:09]alits and you weren't going to let them weaponize the Holocaust in

[8:14]Zionism how how does someone whose parents grew up Surviving the Holocaust

[8:20]Coming to America not have Israel and the concept of of Zionism

[8:28]which develops right after that to be at the Forefront of your

[8:32]upbringing was it not why was it not something I was Ed

[8:36]I got to tell you I have roommates in college one of

[8:40]them grew up Jewish one of them discovered his his ancestors uh

[8:44]were were in the Holocaust and uh became a very St Zionist

[8:47]so I'm curious what is it about your upbringing that did not

[8:52]lead you towards that direction the simple answer to that question is

[8:59]experience in and of itself does not determine any single answer to

[9:10]that experience two people can go through the identical experience and come

[9:16]out with totally different conclusions from that experience so in the case

[9:21]of the Nazi Holocaust basically you could say there were two kinds

[9:28]of conclusions people drew one was was never again to Jews that

[9:33]uh we will now look after our own and uh we will

[9:42]do whatever needs to be done to defend our own so that

[9:48]was the never again the Jews and my impression is I could

[9:52]be wrong most Jews who passed through the Nazi Holocaust came to

[9:58]that conclusion but there was another group group of people who came

[10:02]to the conclusion never again to anybody so they passed to the

[10:09]exact same conclusion excuse me the exact same experience where they walked

[10:14]away saying that uh everybody who is suffering oppression is worthy of

[10:24]and deserving of uh support and I would say not to IDE

[10:29]idealized my parents they had many imperfections and one of the sad

[10:38]parts of getting older is you begin to discover in your own

[10:42]Mind's Eye all the imperfections they had um not to say I

[10:52]myself don't suffer from 10,000 imperfections as Gandhi like to say I

[10:58]have 10 th000 flaws and when gandi said it I think he

[11:06]meant it anybody who has self knowledge is aware of how many

[11:11]flaws character flaws they suffer from having said that I would say

[11:20]my parents at least in words in Words they conveyed the right

[11:26]message and that I like my two siblings these apples did not

[11:36]fall far from the tree um there are probably things they would

[11:43]disagree with what I'm disagree with me I don't think there would

[11:52]be any disagreement about what I have to say about gosip I'm

[11:58]very confident that that they would totally agree with me and I

[12:03]have been asked that question the first time I appeared on Pierce

[12:12]Morgan's program he did directly ask me what would my parents think

[12:18]and for me that's a significant question namely I don't want to

[12:28]ever be accused of betraying their memor and I certainly would never

[12:37]want to misrepresent who they were so even if if there is

[12:42]a disagreement I will express it I would say my parents would

[12:45]not agree with me on this but I don't believe as I

[12:51]said to Pierce Morgan and then I checked with my brother one

[12:57]of my brothers I did call him and ask him for an

[13:01]honest assessment what would Mom and Dad have said and there was

[13:09]a concurrence between us on the question of Gaza there would be

[13:13]as the expression has it there would be no daylight between us

[13:19]so I'm confident of that fact my parents had different different personalities

[13:27]and they didn't end up getting divorce although at the end of

[13:32]their lives they came back together because they both suffered from quite

[13:35]horrible terminal illnesses but I remember my mother once saying however much

[13:42]your father and I disagreed about 10,000 Things strangely enough you never

[13:48]disagreed about politics their politics were a little strange but strange for

[13:57]me in a very positive way because uh my parents as I

[14:04]said in all their floors always keeping in mind that mine are

[14:10]many more than theirs for all their floors one thing I could

[14:19]say with certainty my parents could not be bought they could not

[14:25]be purchased and there were many moments where those they they were

[14:29]there were opportunities to capitalize on their experience during World War II

[14:37]but if it was at the cost of saying something they didn't

[14:42]believe they would into it there was no way so you were

[14:52]I'm going to reference your interview from Case Western back in 2008

[14:56]you'd actually um spoke about two weeks before the invasion onza in

[15:06]December right before President Obama and there was a lot more optimism

[15:14]on your part in trying to figure out the ways in which

[15:21]folks can engage those that were shunly Zion this and then we've

[15:29]seen over the several years that there was seven reignited that but

[15:35]what shifts between 08 and 2020 in terms of the optimism you

[15:39]had towards continuing to wor this issue well uh this particular question

[15:45]historical perspective is very important so let's just take a couple of

[15:51]examples when Israel Lebanon in 1982 actually up until Gaza after October

[16:01]7th it was the worst blood leing of any Israeli Invasion now

[16:08]that's completely forgotten between June and September the estimates are that Israel

[16:17]killed between 15 and 20,000 Palestinians and leane overwhelmingly civilians if you

[16:30]take operation cast Le to which you were referring operation castled it

[16:39]was approximately 1,400 people killed of whom about 1,200 were civilians 350

[16:46]children protective Edge which was seen correctly in my view as a

[16:56]real horror show it was still on the order of about 20

[16:59]200 Palestinians killed uh the numbers on civilians vary but that they

[17:08]all all those numbers pale in comparison to what Israel did in

[17:17]Lebanon in 1982 now each time there has been a massive blood

[17:22]leing be it Lebanon or Gaza each time that there has been

[17:31]a massive blood leing there has been varying reactions among the public

[17:36]it's not been uniform Lebanon represented the first major break in public

[17:46]opinion in the United States but it was mostly limited to left

[17:51]liberal and liberal sectors it's very hard for young people in this

[17:56]audience to imagine but roughly up until the Lebanon war Israel was

[18:05]seen as a leftist cause it was not seen as a conservative

[18:14]or reactionary cause Israel was the land of the K Israel was

[18:20]the land of socialists EMP power most of the original zionists be

[18:27]David Boran or Shimon as they were all seen as at the

[18:30]Left End of the political Spectrum so it was not until Lebanon

[18:39]the public opinion among liberals and left liberals began to shift uh

[18:50]operation castled which began December 26 2008 and ended January 17th 2009

[19:01]for those of you who are uh old enough to remember the

[19:09]demonstrations during castled were very large there was a huge outpouring of

[19:17]support for the Palestinians it felt as if it were a turning

[19:22]point in fact I wrote a book shortly after the Lebanon excuse

[19:31]me shortly after operation castled and the title was taken from an

[19:37]article by the Israeli journalist Gideon Le and the book was called

[19:43]this time we went too far because it seemed as if what

[19:52]Israel was doing in Gaza was on a totally different scale and

[19:57]up until then it was a totally different scale but now when

[20:05]we look back operation castet was really as compared to now it

[20:11]was Small Change by 2014 operation protective Edge which if my memory

[20:24]is Right went from June 7th 2014 to August 26th 2014 it

[20:37]was 51 days U it was the reaction was very muted because

[20:44]the International Community and even the domestic audience had by this time

[20:50]grown in that that just means pardon they had grown endur to

[20:58]Israel's periodic what Israel calls mowings of the lawn in Gaza so

[21:05]the reaction was not very strong the operation protective Ed even though

[21:12]it was a horror show at the time the head of the

[21:20]international Committee of the Red Cross a a person named Peter Mo

[21:24]when he toured Gaza after protective Edge he said never before have

[21:33]I seen the degree of Destruction that I've seen in Gaza and

[21:38]that's quite a statement coming from the head of the icrc the

[21:47]Red Cross but even that just to give you one comparison after

[21:52]operation protective Edge it was estimated that Israel had left behind 2.5

[22:01]million tons of rubbish the current estimate for Gaza is believe it

[22:12]or not as of last month the estimate is 38 million tons

[22:21]of rubbish as a matter of fact one of the I won't

[22:23]call it amusing let's just call it one of the the silly

[22:30]aspects of the current Biden peace plan is it talks about a

[22:37]fiveyear period of Rehabilitation of Gaza construction Rehabilitation of Gaza that's part

[22:44]of the peace but if you read the expert opinion it will

[22:52]take a minimum a minimum of 10 years just to clear away

[22:59]the 10 years because the rubble bear in mind most of God

[23:07]are now three quarters of Gaza by the time Israel completes its

[23:11]operation and Rafa will be the whole of Gaza um it has

[23:19]been reduced to Gaza has been reduced purposely to a howling Wilderness

[23:25]there just nothing there it's not just that people have lost their

[23:31]homes the estimate now is approximately 1.1 million or maybe 1.2 million

[23:43]of the people of Gaza have no home to return to it's

[23:46]not just that people have lost their homes it's that they have

[23:54]no idea where to return because they don't have a block anymore

[24:06]they don't have a neighborhood anymore it's completely unrecognizable there was an

[24:16]interesting story I happened to Lo the person but the chief the

[24:20]chief New York Times correspondent over there his name is Patrick Kingsley

[24:27]and this was about a month or two into Israeli assault on

[24:35]Gaza he was standing in a place or as he describes in

[24:41]the article he's standing in a place and he turned to the

[24:45]Israeli officer next to him and he said where are we and

[24:51]the officer named the place and he said I used to spend

[24:59]a lot of here he had no idea where he was and

[25:04]that's basically what Gaza is now now to return to your question

[25:12]obviously uh after October 7th uh we entered a new phase in

[25:24]many respects but one aspect clearly is the international and the United

[25:29]States the domestic reaction a large part of it a large part

[25:34]of it is simply to obviously to the magnitude of Destruction and

[25:43]to the change nature of the Israeli objective is my opinion having

[25:54]studied it quite closely for a large chunk of my adult life

[25:58]that there's nothing qualitatively different about what Israel is doing in Gaza

[26:07]it always targeted civilians it always targeted schools it always targeted hospitals

[26:18]it always targeted un workers journalists that's not new that's old news

[26:30]the magnitude however has changed and to indicate what has changed in

[26:41]the M magnitude I think an ex a the following expression does

[26:48]indicate the change during Israel's Hightech killing freees in Kaza um castled

[26:57]pillar the protected Edge Israel described it as we're mowing the Lo

[27:07]that was the uh metaphor they used you might note a very

[27:17]sick metaphor because half of Gaza is children so when you talk

[27:26]about taking a mower in into Gaza you're talking about smashing the

[27:36]skulls of children the very fact that that metaphor was so casually

[27:48]used for a population half of whom are children and that it

[28:01]never ever registered how pathological that metaphor is tells you about the

[28:11]sensibility of the main stream society when it came to DM but

[28:20]the difference now is very Stark up until October 7th the goal

[28:28]was to Mo the LA but now the goal is different the

[28:33]goal now is there's a fancy word extra Pate anyone here know

[28:40]what that word means I'm going to be disappointed if nobody knows

[28:44]it's unacceptable there are a lot of young people in this room

[28:47]and I do not accept I I see an old hand in

[28:53]the back I don't want to see one hand there should be

[28:55]many hands up come on guys yes not exactly to destroy you

[29:04]uh yes out stand [Applause] up this is our Arab Muslim Webster

[29:23]can you say it again remove it from the roof yes it

[29:25]means to pull out by the roof and and good for you

[29:34]for that um the goal now is to exate to pull out

[29:41]from the root every blade of grass in Gossip which in the

[29:47]terminology of the current Israeli government which they repeated many many a

[29:54]Time the goal is to make Gaza uninhabitable to make Gaza unlivable

[30:02]and in fact um when I Was preparing the um preparing after

[30:11]October 7th because I had forgotten a lot of the details um

[30:16]I was rereading the book on goip can you just bring it

[30:19]up if you don't mind um thank you so so much and

[30:26]at the very end um here at the very end of the

[30:45]book when I was rereading it I came across uh this uh

[30:48]statement by an Israeli this was 2015 and the Israeli the senior

[30:57]Israeli official he said another War with Gaza is [Music] inevitable we

[31:05]cannot conduct a constant War of Attrition namely keep mowing the lawn

[31:12]keep mowing the lawn he said therefore the next conflict has to

[31:21]be the last conflict and it turned out those weren't my words

[31:29]as the Senor is issue but the words were prophetic that they

[31:33]were not going to keep mowing the lawn the next conflict would

[31:38]be the last conflict and that's their intention now so um there

[31:48]are many aspects of the international reaction and I will be happy

[31:53]during questions and answers to talk about because it said many different

[31:59]levels uh one of the extraordinary aspects of what's happened since October

[32:06]7 is you see it's constantly the center is changing one day

[32:15]it's the international court of justice one day it's the international criminal

[32:20]court one day it's the student demonstrations one day is the extraordinary

[32:29]outpouring of support from un agencies there was a long time when

[32:39]you ried on un agencies for factual data they were very reliable

[32:44]but now you have the UN officials the officials in the World

[32:51]Health Organization the world food program the uh food and agriculture organization

[33:03]a large number they're speaking out with I would have to say

[33:13]an impressive amount of courage and persistence you even have which I

[33:20]can't ever remember before the Secretary General of the UN in this

[33:25]case gutieres who has actually been quite good at the beginning right

[33:30]after October 7th no but it was very tough right after October

[33:35]7th for obvious reasons so the uh the reaction has been at

[33:44]many different levels and in my opinion has been morally very impressive

[33:49]why do I say that because at the end of the day

[33:55]Gaza is a poor powerless stateless people the people of Gaza are

[34:08]poor powerless and stateless so to be in solidarity with the people

[34:15]of Gaza means it's a solidarity without any benefits it's not what

[34:24]they say the Latin expression quck proquo which basically means this for

[34:30]that or you wash my hand I wash yours you scratch my

[34:33]back I scratch your no there is no return for supporting Goa

[34:43]it's pure pristine uncorrupted unblemished solidarity and the fact that there has

[34:52]been such a outpouring of solidarity it's just very on a moral

[35:04]level it's very impressive I don't have to tell any young people

[35:09]in this room how expensive college is I don't have to tell

[35:14]any young people or their parents How concerned everybody is about finding

[35:24]a job after they graduate or How concerned many people in this

[35:33]room are about getting into a good law school a good medical

[35:36]school a good Professional School in light of all those considerations to

[35:45]see the young people on college campuses risking sued as they pursue

[35:57]their professional careers risking not being able to attend as many people

[36:04]young people were not able to attend their graduations all for a

[36:15]poor stateless powerless people halfway around the world and when you consider

[36:24]how many causes young people have good reason to worry about climate

[36:32]change nuclear war an economy that's failing about 80% of our country

[36:42]and they chose of all the challenges facing them all the causes

[36:51]that they could have chosen to invest in the fact that they

[36:58]sees on Gaza and not withstanding the real sacrifices that that entailed

[37:10]and to persist and persist and persists it's a very impressive sight

[37:23]to behold there was an anti-war movement in my generation for sure

[37:28]and I will never deny the moral element the genuine pain that

[37:38]people felt at seeing the systematic destruction and incineration of N and

[37:50]that was all real but and it's not really a but it's

[37:57]just looking at the full picture there was an aspect to the

[38:00]war of a genuine fear of being drafted into it that was

[38:07]not a trivial concern if you were a student you got what

[38:11]was called a 4-year deferment for your college Years but then you

[38:17]were up for being drafted and dying in Vietnam we had in

[38:23]our country at the time what was called a lottery and a

[38:26]lottery basic then it put 365 uh uh n 365 chips in

[38:37]the bag and they pulled out your birth date within the first

[38:44]200 numbers it was a problem later when our involvement began to

[38:51]diminish within the first 150 numbers it was a problem so there

[39:00]was what you can call a self-interest in opposing the war of

[39:05]Vietnam now I don't want anyone to walk away thinking that was

[39:11]the only concern no it was a genuine moral outrage at what

[39:16]was being done to the people of Vietnam but in the case

[39:23]of Gaza the truth is there is no self-interest it's a genuine

[39:33]feeling of solidarity with the people who have been mared I don't

[39:39]like uh just for the record I never promote my book for

[39:45]those of you who see me on YouTube you will notice everybody

[39:47]else they have the book sitting on their back bookshelf behind or

[39:51]they hold it up or they ask the moderator I never do

[39:57]that I don't want to ever be seen as trying to profit

[40:03]from what has been done to the people in Gaza but I'll

[40:05]just mention that when I wrote the book God and inquest into

[40:12]its marm U there were it's a university press and the university

[40:17]press means other professors or experts have to look at the book

[40:22]and there was a objection raised to the title of the book

[40:31]One Professor who's actually well known and supportive of Palestinians he says

[40:38]he said I don't think an academic book should have the word

[40:45]Marr in it it's unacademic and I said to B [Music] [Applause]

[41:00]that's what's been done to the people of Gaza they have been

[41:09]martyred and that reality not everybody knows every detail but after oober

[41:23]7th that reality set in and we have to be Rec we

[41:34]have to be cognizant that public awareness shifts over time cast led

[41:42]a lot of public awareness protective Edge much less and actually the

[41:50]worst showing came in 2018 during gaza's great March of return when

[42:01]they attempted a nonviolent civil resistance to end the blockade of Gaza

[42:10]and even though it was quite horrific what Israel did during the

[42:17]Great March of return it brought in its best snipers lining them

[42:26]up along the perimeter with Gaza and then as the UN report

[42:36]an authoritative un report it runs to 250 pages single space it

[42:42]said that Israel targeted children targeted or to use their language intentionally

[42:55]targeted children intentionally targeted Church J ists intentionally targeted Medics and intentionally

[43:06]targeted disabled people it targeted double utees did they were 300 M

[43:18]away from the perimeter fence they were sitting in a wheelchair they

[43:26]were on crutches and they were targeted um the International Community even

[43:35]the Palestine solidarity Community totally ignored the great March of I don't

[43:40]think there was one demonstration in the United States in support of

[43:43]it um so I think we have to be cognizant that people

[43:53]forget and it's possible that they will forget once the conflict is

[44:03]once the current round is over it's possible people will forget but

[44:12]it's also possible that that Scarlet Letter G for genocide has now

[44:23]been permanently a fix on the state of Israel and that will

[44:27][Music] it will not be washed away even with time it won't

[44:42]be eroded or worn away that's a real I think that's a

[44:46]that Israel uh has now crossed a line even though as I

[44:53]said I thought that was true and castled but Israel has crossed

[44:57]the line from which there were be no return the very fact

[45:02]the very fact that there is a public debate about whether or

[45:09]not Israel's committing genocide represents a completely new level of public awareness

[45:19]you couldn't it was impossible to debate it now some people deny

[45:23]it some people affirm it but the fact that you're having a

[45:28]debate about whether Israel is a genocidal state is something completely new

[45:36]and I think there's a reasonable prospect that it will not go

[45:42]away so you you talk when you talk about debate I want

[45:49]to bring up what is I think one of the greatest academic

[45:56]uh clapbacks I've ever seen is when you uh wrote an entire

[45:59]book to argue against professor jhu's book which I know I know

[46:07]you're from New York so uh Nas's Ether was the greatest rap

[46:11]uh comeback to Jay-Z ever so you and Nas have a very

[46:17]similar uh style in terms of when you want to go after

[46:21]the person you pick the medium in which they tried to come

[46:24]after you uh but not everybody can can do that not every

[46:30]can be Nas I Can Be Dr finlin so for those of

[46:31]us that care about this issue and want to keep fighting this

[46:37]I think there's a couple tensions that arise number one we are

[46:41]seeing the Fidelity of the institutions that you mentioned unra the United

[46:46]Nations the ICC the court of justice anytime there's a disagreement we

[46:52]there's an attempt to delegitimize and we see this happen in the

[46:56]United States I don't like the outcome of the election I'll question

[46:59]the Integrity of the actual voting process how does one navigate that

[47:03]if this seems to be the medium in which people debate Now

[47:08]by just delegitimizing those institutions if that's the first argument that we

[47:12]have to make and then the second Point around the solidarity piece

[47:15]when people cheapen that solidarity to say is rooted in anti-Semitism that

[47:21]the fervor for love of the presant people and the Palestinians is

[47:27]actually subliminally because of the hatred that folks may have of the

[47:31]Jewish people so how can one navigate that and and I'll give

[47:37]you a threepiece uh a lot of young folks are are protesting

[47:40]and I know when you visited Colombia you gave some sound advice

[47:43]that there has to be an an ability to engage in a

[47:48]way that continues to bring people and not alienate so the style

[47:52]in which folks protest the way in which people discuss the issues

[47:55]there has to be a calculus to continue to build the pro

[48:01]peace Pro Palestine uh perspective so I know you have a memory

[48:04]like Zach so I believe you're going to answer all those questions

[48:07]and if you don't know Zach is is a famous theology in

[48:12]the Muslim Community who can site any page any verse of of

[48:15]any text he discusses similar to your style [Music] that I have

[48:22]all those questions bres through in my mind you said that [Music]

[48:31]um I I I will go through them come just don't tell

[48:46]me oh okay the first question uh has to do with what

[48:56]kinds of sources do you use to convince people and there there

[49:00]has been a very dramatic change since October 7th up until October

[49:05]7th those who try to convey a true picture about what's going

[49:12]on they generally relied on the human rights organizations adest the international

[49:17]Human Rights Watch there was the Israeli information center for human rights

[49:25]in the occupied territories called thatum and there the Palestinian human rights

[49:29]organizations and that was the main source of evidence because they appear

[49:36]to be neutral and professional the argument is if you accept what

[49:44]Human Rights Watch has to say about uh cashmir and if you

[49:50]accept what Human Rights Watch has to say about um the Kurds

[49:53]then why don't you accept what they have to say about is

[50:00]in Palestine but since October 7 it's a very noticeable fact for

[50:05]people like myself who read the factual data that if you for

[50:10]example look at the South Africa application to the international court of

[50:17]justice it's 84 Pages it has literally hundreds of footnotes and many

[50:29]of the footnotes have many sources in a footnote so it's a

[50:34]huge undertaking by the South African government what struck me most was

[50:45]they didn't use human rights organizations they just cited un sources and

[50:53]un was always considered to be a objective sources they're very professional

[50:59]they are they're a very professional organization and they're generally not swayed

[51:07]by personal or partisan conviction they are accurate and it was a

[51:20]real eyeopener for me to see that now the whole um bureaucratic

[51:26]institutional um Network every organization as I mentioned earlier that you know

[51:33]everybody knows who World Health Organization everybody here knows Unice everybody here

[51:42]knows um let me take another common well you know but orra

[51:52]was always seen as a little partisan I'm just taking the most

[51:58]you know the World Bank the international monetary fund and they were

[52:04]coming out with these very sharp statements and that to me it

[52:12]was a nice thing to see people found their moral voice they

[52:20]found their spine they found their backbone you even see a significant

[52:26]not overwhelming but a significant number of defections Even in our own

[52:32]US State Department of people who are saying we cannot accept producing

[52:41]or publishing lies about what's going on on in Gaza under our

[52:47]name and they have left their job some publicly others privately so

[52:56]I would say at this particular point in time there is no

[53:03]lack of sources and factual evidence to draw on it's a very

[53:12]impressive case that has been made most notably by South Africa in

[53:21]the international court of justice now that leads us to the second

[53:27]question which is the question of um trying to delegitimize what's being

[53:38]what's now

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