Knowing God - The Cave Podcast - ft. Sayed Mostafa Modarresi

7 المشاهدات· 26/02/25

Sayed Mahdi Modarresi
مشتركين

في محاضرات

What is the strongest rational argument for God’s existence today? Why do some intelligent people still reject belief? Is atheism increasing because of evidence or arrogance? Can spirituality exist without religion? Does suffering argue against God — or point toward Him? Can science and faith coexist without contradiction? Why do crises often revive faith? These questions and more in this episode of The Cave Podcast, with Sayed Mahdi and Sayed Mostafa Modarresi

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Transcript

[0:10]My dear brothers and sisters, viewers from around the world, one of

[0:21]the single most pivotal topics of discussion and contemplation is the question

[0:30]of how we're able to get to know our creator.

[0:36]Who is God?

[0:38]How can we know him better?

[0:42]How can we seek nearness to him?

[0:45]How can we familiarize ourselves with him?

[0:48]Are there philosophical or rational proofs that we need in order to

[0:57]establish his existence as a step that precedes knowledge of God and

[1:05]recognition of our creator?

[1:08]These are all pivotal questions that have not only been posed to

[1:16]me, but they were posed to prophets and messengers long before any

[1:22]of us existed.

[1:22]And so I felt that it was pertinent for us to discuss

[1:29]the topic of God and the concept of the creator and how

[1:38]to recognize him uh as it is the single most important point

[1:45]of discussion especially uh in the holy month of Ramadan uh as

[1:52]we are all on a journey trying to uh get close to

[1:55]God and to establish his satisfaction with us.

[2:00]Uh obviously it comes as no surprise that for us to do

[2:03]that we need to recognize him first.

[2:09]And so in this uh uh session I have the distinct pleasure

[2:12]uh of hosting yet again uh his eminence the esteemed scholar uh

[2:18]as well as my younger brother say Mustafa al- Mudi uh so

[2:25]that we can engage in these discussions and uh shed light on

[2:34]any areas of darkness or gaps in our knowledge.

[2:36]Inshallah it's a pleasure and an honor to have you in this

[2:42]discussion.

[2:42]Uh so I wanted to begin with a uh very common question

[2:46]that I get uh which is that in an age where science

[2:52]uh explains more than ever uh obviously it uh the scientific community

[2:58]uh claims to know a lot more than it has in the

[3:05]past and uh at the same time we are uh surrounded by

[3:11]so many distractions that are consuming us.

[3:11]Um, is belief in God rational?

[3:18]And if so, uh, what would be the strongest rational argument for

[3:24]the existence of God, uh, in your view?

[3:29][clears throat] >> Allow me in the beginning uh, uh, to uh,

[3:32]highlight the importance of uh, this topic during the month of Ramadan.

[3:38]uh Allah subhanana wa ta'ala in the Quran um in a very

[3:46]interesting way uh he speaks about himself uh and we as humans

[3:54]are dispositioned to uh to seek him and to try to know

[4:00]him and to reach him.

[4:00]uh Allahh speaks about the month of Ramadan in two verses that

[4:06]speak entirely about uh the features of of this month and then

[4:09]suddenly in between these two verses uh he says talking to the

[4:17]prophet and if you were asked about me how to locate him

[4:22]how to reach him how to communicate with him how to know

[4:26]him he doesn't say tell them that I am near.

[4:31]He speaks directly to us.

[4:34]I am near.

[4:38]This is why I think it's very relevant to cover these topics

[4:43]during the uh the month of Ramadan during these nights.

[4:46]And maybe one of the reasons is because uh through the the

[4:53]the supplications and through through the uh uh spiritual state that we

[4:59]adopt or acquire uh in this holy month uh we will feel

[5:04]the overwhelming presence of Allah subhana wa tala.

[5:06]Regarding the the question that you're posing about the strongest argument to

[5:11]prove the existence of God, I think that we need to take

[5:17]into account uh three elements or three pillars when we uh want

[5:23]to assess or analyze uh an argument that proves the existence of

[5:30]God.

[5:28]The first pillar is that when we talk about God, we're not

[5:36]trying to uh prove something from scratch.

[5:40]We're not trying to plant anything in people's minds.

[5:42]We're not trying to introduce God from nothing.

[5:46]uh we believe that uh knowing God in essence is something that

[5:55]is embedded within uh our psyche within our mind and uh what

[6:00]we need to do uh if we're successful in uh uh connecting

[6:05]a person with Allah subhana wa ta'ala is to provoke and arouse

[6:12]that uh component that Allahh ingrained within Yes.

[6:16]Yes.

[6:17]Through the signs and through all the uh other evidence we uh

[6:28]essentially uh we are trying to uh get a better understanding of

[6:30]him.

[6:31]We are trying to know more about him.

[6:35]For example, you prove his wisdom through the spectacular uh universe that

[6:41]we're living in through uh you know his the way he created

[6:48]uh the world we uh attest to the fact that he has

[6:51]power.

[6:51]He has the ability to do this.

[6:52]But in essence, knowing God is ingrained within us.

[6:58]That's the first pillar.

[6:59]The second pillar I think is that because we are different, we

[7:06]have to be inherently different from the creator.

[7:07]This is why this needs to be taken into account that we

[7:13]can never fully comprehend and understand the almighty god because we as

[7:19]finite beings cannot comprehend something that is infinite.

[7:21]We as limited beings cannot understand something that is not limited.

[7:27]Allahh is drastically different from us.

[7:31]And this is why we find that in the words of theam

[7:35]there is special emphasis on this.

[7:37]They say that you might use common words when you describe God,

[7:40]but the word is common, but the meaning is different.

[7:46]You say, "I exist and God exists, but his existence is entirely

[7:51]different from my existence." >> It's a deficiency on the part of

[7:54]language itself that we're we're not able to um to use distinct

[8:02]words when speaking about something that is limitless.

[8:05]as you said uh while also describing uh ourselves as as created

[8:10]beings, right?

[8:11]So it's it's it's the deficiency on the part of language that

[8:14]compels us to use the same vernacular, the same vocabulary, but ultimately

[8:22]the meaning is diametrically opposed.

[8:23]It's uh it's antithetical.

[8:24]>> Absolutely.

[8:26]So every argument that draws a parallel between uh between humans, between

[8:31]us, between the creation and God is flawed.

[8:34]inherently flawed.

[8:36]This needs to be taken into account.

[8:38]And if we ascribe >> that's the second pillar of the uh

[8:42]of the >> of the foundation of any argument right >> about

[8:47]the existence of God.

[8:48]>> Uh so if you ascribe anything that us as creatures have

[8:54]to the almighty god the whole argument would collapse.

[9:00]Uh if you're proving a god that is time bound, spacebound, has

[9:04]any physical features, uh >> that's no god.

[9:07]>> That's no god.

[9:10]Because you can't believe in a god that is time bound.

[9:14]You can't believe in a god that is bound by uh that

[9:16]is made of matter.

[9:20]The second pillar is that it has to be universal.

[9:21]>> It has to appeal to everyone.

[9:26]Why?

[9:25]Because we all have the need to know God and to be

[9:32]able to reach God.

[9:35]And because there is this desperate need to reach him, it can't

[9:39]be an exclusive argument.

[9:43]Yes, I understand the appeal behind uh uh some people's uh attempt

[9:47]to uh pursue uh a philosophical argument, a complicated argument uh because

[9:54]using simple terms and simple uh a simple approach might not be

[9:59]appealing to uh to to some people.

[10:06]But uh but at the end of the day it's it's something

[10:08]that everyone uh should be able to relate to.

[10:14]So any argument to be successful needs to take into account these

[10:18]three pillars.

[10:19]>> Well, you know what I find really interesting?

[10:22]uh the fact that uh people who lived in the time of

[10:32]uh previous prophets and apostles uh they posed this very same question

[10:38]about God's existence to their own prophets and [snorts] interestingly enough the

[10:40]Quran speaks about this in surah Ibraim Allah subhana wa ta'ala tells

[10:49]us uh meaning the the people uh uh to whom the prophets

[10:52]were We reject everything that you have brought to us uh that

[11:03]you were sent with.

[11:07]Uh not only that, but we feel that uh we're doubtful about

[11:15]uh your claims uh uh especially the ones pertaining to God and

[11:20]his existence.

[11:22]We have serious doubts about that uh that that claim.

[11:25]And so uh notice how the Quran responds uh in the on

[11:32]the tongue of those prophets, how those prophets all replied to them.

[11:37]Their messengers would respond by saying, "Is there any doubt about God,

[11:49]the creator of the heavens and the earth?" And I think this

[11:52]goes back to an earlier point that you made about one of

[11:56]the conditions of a strong rational argument for God's existence, which is

[12:00]that it has to be universal.

[12:01]It has to be intrinsic.

[12:02]It has to be built right into us uh so that we

[12:08]could receive it um rather easily.

[12:09]And uh I think the best way to describe that would be

[12:16]to say that we are hardwired to believe in God.

[12:17]uh that we came into this world with an innate recognition of

[12:23]God.

[12:23]Uh that it wasn't a completely clean slate.

[12:28]It wasn't that you know we came into this world um without

[12:32]any prior recognition.

[12:33]Uh there was something there.

[12:37]And uh what's really interesting about that is I came across this

[12:44]hadith where somebody comes to uh Imad Alam and he says to

[12:49]him he says will the believers be able to see God on

[12:53]judgment day?

[12:54]uh you know there's this I guess inclination that a lot of

[12:58]people have about being able to sense God, perceive God, see him,

[13:06]feel him in in a physical sense.

[13:07]And so the question was, will we ever be able to do

[13:09]that?

[13:09]Will we ever be able to, you know, cast our gaze upon

[13:14]him and see him in physical form?

[13:16]And the imam's response was really telling.

[13:19]And that he says to him, he says, "Not only will believers

[13:23]see God on the day of judgment, but they will also get

[13:29]to see him in this world." Then the imam goes a step

[13:34]further.

[13:34]Uh as if that wasn't confusing enough, he says to him, "In

[13:37]fact, they have already seen God.

[13:39]They have already perceived him." And so the man says, "You know,

[13:45]what are we talking about here?" So the IM tells him uh

[13:47]that we as believers as well as non-believers we all perceived God

[13:55]in a world that preceded this one right before coming into this

[14:01]dunya we all saw God and I think many of of our

[14:07]viewers will uh find this uh you know terminology very close to

[14:11]something that they might be familiar with which is a statement by

[14:14]the commander of the faithful when somebody came to the Imam and

[14:17]he said to him, "Have you ever seen your Lord?" And the

[14:22]imam said to him, "I would never worship a god that I

[14:30]haven't seen." And so he says to him, "You saw him?

[14:31]What did he look like?" So this is when the imam kind

[14:36]of scolded him and said or uh it's not the eyes that

[14:44]saw the creator.

[14:43]It is rather the uh it is rather our faith uh that

[14:53]perceived him uh with uh or in truth, right?

[14:58]Right.

[14:59]And so what that is referring to uh in particular the hadith

[15:06]of Imam.

[15:07]The Imam expands on this and he says that we all got

[15:09]to see God not with our eyes but with our faith and

[15:15]with our conviction on the day that Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala introduced

[15:19]himself to us uh in the world of the shadows or the

[15:24]world of the spirits or the world of the atoms whatever you

[15:26]want to call it.

[15:29]But before coming into this world, we had the opportunity to perceive

[15:33]God with our hearts.

[15:34]And that is when Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala uh as per the

[15:40]Quran, the imam quoted the verse in the Quran, he said when

[15:42]God told them, "Am I not your lord?" And they all acknowledged

[15:49]uh and and affirmed that you are indeed our lord and our

[15:56]creator.

[15:53]In other words, something happened there and we don't know for sure.

[16:00]Uh but what we do know is that all the veils were

[16:02]lifted, right?

[16:05]All the distractions, all the doubts, anything that might have obstructed our

[16:11]recognition of God was removed and we were able to see God

[16:17]or or or those obstructions and th those veils didn't exist yet.

[16:21]Right?

[16:22]So for whatever reason we recognized God at that moment and so

[16:27]we have narrations that say that later on in this world people

[16:31]will experience something similar to that.

[16:34]Now why that happens uh traditions tell us that or how it

[16:38]happens is because uh we go through uh traumatic experiences or we

[16:46]go through um these incredibly spiritual um you know uh ephemeural kind

[16:54]of um experiences in this world where we're able to recognize God

[17:00]once again without a speck of doubt with all of those uh

[17:02]veils being lifted and all of those uh distractions being removed, we're

[17:09]able to recognize him and connect with him on a deep visceral

[17:12]level uh as we did in the world of the shadows and

[17:18]as we will on the day of judgment as well, right?

[17:20]And so when the when the verse in the Quran says um

[17:25]is there any doubt about God's existence what Allah subhana wa ta

[17:32]is telling us is that uh by default you are hardwired to

[17:37]recognize God and to have faith in him and to believe in

[17:40]him.

[17:41]Right?

[17:42]It is these distractions and doubts and you know uh the various

[17:52]um uh if you like uh uh uh spiritual ailments uh like

[17:56]arrogance and greed and sin and whatnot that might push us away

[18:02]from uh that innate recognition of Allah subhana wa ta'ala otherwise it's

[18:07]there it's there when we come into this world and our lives

[18:11]should essentially be a journey to try and rekindle that connection to

[18:15]try and um and uh uh uh uh arrive at a recognition

[18:21]of Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala that was lost through our uh entry

[18:26]into this dunya and being sort of surrounded by all of these

[18:29]distractions.

[18:31]And uh it's interesting that when a believer talks to an atheist,

[18:38]we understand their arguments, but they don't understand where we're coming from.

[18:42]For us, it's crystal clear that Allahh exists.

[18:46]Uh speaking of uh being able to to to see God, I

[18:54]imam once debated [snorts] an Indian doctor who was an atheist.

[18:57]So the he tells the imam that uh I can't believe in

[19:02]a god that I can't uh see or I can't you know

[19:07]sense with my five senses.

[19:08]The imam then said to him after a long debate he said

[19:12]to him when you failed to see him you denied him.

[19:14]But when we failed to see him with our eyes this is

[19:20]when we realize that he must be the creator.

[19:23]He must be the god that we're looking for.

[19:23]Because if you can see him, then he can't be.

[19:27]You're attributing physical as uh attributions to him.

[19:31]>> Uh >> so he's not a god.

[19:33]>> He's not a god.

[19:34]>> Subhan Allah.

[19:37]Um the commander of the faithful says in one of the uh

[19:41]supplications, "Oh Allah, you created and molded the hearts with your will.

[19:54]and you uh created that intrinsic recognition of yourself um uh within

[20:04]uh the intellects within our rational uh uh faculty.

[20:07]Uh he says in another hadith, this one's not a supplication, it's

[20:12]a statement attributed to the Imam.

[20:17]I'm amazed at the one who has doubt in God uh all

[20:24]while uh perceiving and seeing all of his signs.

[20:29]Right?

[20:29]You you you look around and all you see is signs of

[20:31]God's existence.

[20:33]and yet you uh actually have the audacity to say that uh

[20:38]that I don't recognize him.

[20:42]Look around.

[20:41]That's all you have to do.

[20:45]And that's why the Quran and the traditions of the B are

[20:51]uh replete with verses and uh statements of scripture that we might

[20:58]otherwise describe as scientific, right?

[21:01]Uh but really they're not about elucidating scientific equations.

[21:06]What they're designed to do is to connect us back to God.

[21:09]Is to uh make us turn our attention towards the signs, the

[21:13]abundant clear signs of the creator so that we could uh foster

[21:22]that recognition inside of us once again.

[21:24]Um in fact the Quran makes a beautiful statement in which Allah

[21:28]subhana t says We will present to them.

[21:36]We will show them our signs in the horizons as well as

[21:40]within themselves until it becomes evident that this is in fact the

[21:50]truth.

[21:51]This is in Allahh is basically saying look all you have to

[21:58]do yes you have an intrinsic uh innate recognition of God that

[22:01]needs to be rekindled that needs to be awakened that needs to

[22:04]be um sort of recovered right but in addition to that one

[22:10]of the greatest ways you can achieve that recognition uh is for

[22:14]you to look at the signs of creation the signs of Allah

[22:18]subhanahu wa ta'ala I I mean our own creation, right?

[22:23]Every single cell in our body screams that it was created.

[22:28]Every single thing that we see with our eyes that we sense

[22:32]with our hands or uh you know uh any of the other

[22:39]sensory organs is is is screaming as loud as as as it

[22:41]as it's possible to do so that they were all created.

[22:46]And even Allah abbar people think that we're saying God is greater

[22:49]than everything.

[22:51]While if he is greater than everything, you're comparing him with his

[22:55]creation.

[22:54]>> When in fact there is no comparison.

[22:56]>> No comparison.

[22:58]This is why the hadith says Allahbar means God is greater or

[23:01]superior superior than our imagination.

[23:04]We can't imagine him indescribable.

[23:09]>> Absolutely.

[23:10]And uh I think while uh philosophers and apologists have tried to

[23:15]prove God's existence quote unquote prove his existence through various means uh

[23:21]namely uh the ontological argument argument by design uh etc etc.

[23:26]The Quran asserts time and again that uh God's existence is so

[23:35]obvious and so apparent and clear that it doesn't require any proof.

[23:40]as you said, all it needs is an awakening.

[23:43]All it needs is a recovery of the the data, the information,

[23:47]the knowledge that's already there.

[23:50]It just needs to be dusted and cleaned so that it comes

[23:56]back to the surface uh once again.

[23:57]Um and really all you need to do that is some basic

[23:59]reasoning.

[24:00]um and you know to open one's eye, look around and see

[24:08]what's out there because it's it's as clear as uh daylight.

[24:12]So uh the the hadith uh emphasize on the fact that there

[24:19]has to be a moment in our lives uh when Allah makes

[24:26]himself known to us.

[24:26]Uh again it could be through uh a dire situation that we

[24:31]experience through sickness through uh something can happen to us a trauma

[24:38]whatever uh when uh when something happens to us the veil is

[24:46]removed.

[24:47]This is when uh you will feel it.

[24:49]You will realize that you have a creator.

[24:52]You will uh a moment of affirmation.

[24:55]you will acknowledge that he exists.

[24:57]This has to happen to each and every one of us.

[24:58]There's a hadith that says that when you go to Hajj, there

[25:03]will come a moment when you will make that realization.

[25:08]uh or the hadith says that a man comes to im and

[25:13]he says to him that uh I've debated uh non-believers and uh

[25:19]and every argument that I present they reject it they try to

[25:23]twist it give me something that is irrefutable >> irrefutable so the

[25:28]imam says to him uh have you been in a shipwreck uh

[25:32]where uh there was no one out there to help you uh

[25:37]have did You feel that your heart uh is attached to something

[25:42]that you can't describe, you can't imagine, but you feel that there

[25:47]is a higher authority that can come to your rescue.

[25:49]Uh he said yes, this has happened to me.

[25:53]He said that this is God.

[25:53]Your heart is now attached to that ultimate uh uh thing that

[26:04]you're seeking.

[26:05]And then the the hadith says that this has to happen to

[26:11]everyone so that whenever you're in doubt, you would uh remember that

[26:16]time when >> uh you were, you know, put in that situation

[26:20]uh and then uh realize that yes, I felt it.

[26:26]I know he's there.

[26:27]By the way, you know what I find um really funny is

[26:36]uh there are certain luxury items that uh people seem to be

[26:40]obsessed with.

[26:41]Uh and uh they're often referred to as designer items, designer bags,

[26:47]designer shoes, designer clothes, right?

[26:49]And the reason they're they're given that that name uh is because,

[26:54]you know, you can tell that there is uh purpose in the

[27:00]design.

[27:01]You can tell that it's made intentionally.

[27:02]Uh they're stitched in a better way.

[27:07]The material used.

[27:07]The uh uh color coordination seems to just be a little bit

[27:12]more intentional.

[27:14]And so obviously they slap a very hefty uh price tag on

[27:18]them.

[27:19]uh scamming uh uh consumers all the time.

[27:23]But what's funny to me is that those items are called designer

[27:29]items.

[27:28]In other words, surely if it's stitched well and if it's built

[27:33]to last, it must have a designer.

[27:36]And yet, [laughter] look at the world.

[27:38]Look at the universe.

[27:38]Look at everything that's in our, you know, little corner of the

[27:45]of the of creation, meaning our planet.

[27:48]Look at yourself in the mirror for once and you see signs

[27:51]of design that was infinitely purposeful, that was infinitely intentional, that was

[27:59]infinitely exquisite and beautiful and grounded in in knowledge and whatnot.

[28:06]So people are willing to reject a the existence of a designer

[28:13]for this entire universe but call a bag designer made because the

[28:17]stitching was a little bit better better.

[28:19]So, you know, I I I I find that really really comical

[28:24]and absurd, but it's the world world we're living in.

[28:25]>> And uh it's it's so profound and impactful that sometimes you

[28:31]just can't help but remain in that state for a long time

[28:36]and maybe until the end of your life.

[28:39]I have a friend who uh who was uh was traveling from

[28:41]Indonesia to Christmas Island to seek refuge in Australia.

[28:46]And he said that the boats are usually very >> it's one

[28:51]of the roughest waters uh in the deepest the deepest area in

[28:57]the ocean.

[28:55]Uh the uh the waves are like mountains.

[28:58]So he said they were in a shipwreck uh and they were

[29:04]left in the in the middle of the ocean and it was

[29:08]so scary.

[29:07]It was so dreadful.

[29:09]He talks about the experience.

[29:10]He said there were two girls that had migrated from the from

[29:15]the Middle East.

[29:15]I don't want to name the country where they were uh fleeing.

[29:19]>> Let's just say it was Switzerland.

[29:21]>> Switzerland.

[29:23]So uh they started uh pleading with God, beseeching him, if you're

[29:29]there, if you exist, come and save us because there was no

[29:34]chance in hell that they would be saved.

[29:38]Uh somehow somehow in the middle of the night, uh a I

[29:41]think it was a Norwegian ship that was passing by and they

[29:45]happened to to spot them even though they're in the middle of

[29:51]the darkness.

[29:50]I think this was after three days they uh they had no

[29:55]water left, no food, no nothing.

[29:56]They were with kids and it was like traumatic and uh they

[30:03]said, "Oh God, if you save us, we will believe in you

[30:06]and the belief in you will be unshakable and we will uh

[30:12]abide by uh your injunctions." Uh so he said alhamdulillah we were

[30:17]saved and uh we uh reached the shores of Australia and their

[30:24]applications were uh were accepted and he said several years later I

[30:29]met with one of the girls in Melbourne in Australia and even

[30:34]though when they when we were together in the ship they had

[30:36]removed their hijab they were running away from their culture from their

[30:39]heritage from religion from everything they said >> Switzerland must be a

[30:42]horrible place but go on [laughter] >> and the reason why we're

[30:47]going to Australia is just to uh you know remove all the

[30:50]baggage and just be free.

[30:54]He said but she was the most observant woman I had seen.

[30:57]This was like eight years pious as they come immigration.

[31:00][laughter] >> Yeah.

[31:02]So sometimes I think you you once mentioned the story of a

[31:06]friend of yours who had cancer and he recovered miraculously.

[31:09]I think it was a stage four cancer >> and uh he

[31:13]told you that I I have a picture of myself >> uh

[31:18]during the chemotherapy treatment and it's in my the back background of

[31:23]my mobile phone and every time I look at myself I remember

[31:25]those days and how Allah saved me >> which subhan Allah um

[31:31]tells you that uh not all trauma is bad not all um

[31:35]tribulations and forms of suffering are bad Uh, in fact, we have

[31:44]narrations that state uh that these traumatic experiences that people go through

[31:50]um are in fact to awaken us and to make us turn

[31:58]towards the very source of our our our creation and everything that's

[32:02]good.

[32:03]Um and so I think when people go through traumatic experiences uh

[32:08]they go in one of two directions.

[32:11]Either they walk away from God or they walk towards him.

[32:15]Yeah.

[32:16]So, so you know back to the original question about what would

[32:19]be the strongest argument for God's existence other than the innate recognition

[32:25]that we all have that requires only the merest of um awakening

[32:31]and provocation if you like.

[32:35]Uh that to me I think is the strongest proof um there

[32:38]is.

[32:39]However, as I said, the Quran does invite us to explore the

[32:46]universe, to explore the world, and to uh recognize how every single

[32:52]piece of this magnificent and incredibly vast puzzle is a sign for

[32:59]uh the most omnipotent uh meaning all powerful, almighty, and omnisient meaning

[33:07]having infinite knowledge, creator.

[33:10]Right.

[33:13]But part of that is is so that you know we and

[33:16]I think philosophically they refer to this as the argument by design

[33:20]and and you know we have no problem with that.

[33:21]I know that when it comes to causation that there are some

[33:25]flaws in the argument and that's why we don't find it in

[33:27]our scripture.

[33:28]We don't find it in the Quran or the traditions of the

[33:30]Albate.

[33:30]um among some of the other uh philosophical especially Aristotilian arguments that

[33:37]have been uh presented to prove God's existence.

[33:41]Um but the argument by design I think is a is an

[33:44]especially potent one.

[33:47]Um because again uh there's a there's a beautiful expression has in

[33:55]uh sermon 184 in the im says they claim that they're like

[34:05]grass or weed.

[34:05]They don't have a farmer.

[34:08]They don't have anyone who planted them, right?

[34:09]They just spontaneously grew out of nowhere.

[34:15]and that their uh the the variety uh of their appearance and

[34:23]their uh difference in color and complexion and language and and the

[34:28]incredibly exquisite variety that we find in creation.

[34:32]All of this did not have a creator.

[34:36]This is what they claim.

[34:35]Then the Imam says, now this statement to me is so mesmerizingly

[34:47]beautiful.

[34:48]Uh not just because of its poetic value because there's rhyme, there

[34:54]is an incredible uh juxiposition of words that is you know almost

[34:58]impossible and miraculous but the message in it is so simple, so

[35:04]universal.

[35:04]going back to the point that you made early on in the

[35:12]in the program.

[35:09]Uh so universally uh recognizable, so uh ubiquitously uh acceptable because what

[35:18]the Imam is saying here is this.

[35:22]He says, "Could you ever point to a building that's made from

[35:29]different material and appears to have a purpose and tries to address

[35:33]problems like shielding you from the from the cold and the heat

[35:39]and providing you with sufficient sunlight, but also allowing you to have,

[35:43]you know, enough darkness so that you could rest in comfort and

[35:46]ease.

[35:46]and uh the the the entry points, the exit points, the you

[35:50]know the fire alarm, all these things are there.

[35:54]The building is there and it's right there in front of you.

[35:59]And yet for someone to say that no, this just emerged spontaneously

[36:04]or magically without a builder.

[36:05]The imam says, "Is there a building without a builder?" Then he

[36:12]says, "Is there a crime without a criminal?" Imagine telling uh the

[36:19]investigators or the police officers who show up to a crime scene,

[36:22]seeing a person lying on his face with a knife stabbed in

[36:27]the back and telling them that no, it just happened by by

[36:29]by itself, right?

[36:32]There there there's nothing to see here.

[36:32]Everyone should just go back home.

[36:34]There's no criminal.

[36:36]There's no foul play.

[36:37]There's no homicide that ever happened here.

[36:41]It's just ludicrous, right?

[36:43]The imam says if a crime must have a criminal, a perpetrator,

[36:50]look at this universe once again.

[36:54]This is how the Quran awakens us.

[36:56]This is how the prophet and theam connect us back to God.

[37:00]They ask us rhetorical questions and through those rhetorical questions uh you

[37:06]know an infinite amount of recognition emerges and it becomes so abundantly

[37:12]clear that it becomes absurd to even ask the question.

[37:14]Hence the verse in the Quran is there a doubt in God?

[37:22]He's the creator of the heavens and the earth.

[37:23]Right?

[37:25]Right.

[37:25]So going back to the original question which was what is the

[37:31]strongest rational argument for God's existence.

[37:31]We covered that uh and I think all of those points are

[37:37]kind of like you know firstline uh arguments that uh that we

[37:42]should present.

[37:43]Um but then there is like a last line of defense.

[37:49]Uh the very you know final uh nail in the coffin uh

[37:52]of atheism if you like is another argument that I am obsessed

[37:58]with and this is commonly referred to in philosophical circles as Pascal's

[38:04]wager right so essentially what it is for those of you who

[38:07]are not you know familiar with it uh is that you've got

[38:09]this philosopher who says that if I were to place a bet

[38:17]on whether God exists or not, then the the more favorable bet

[38:22]would be to bet that God does exist.

[38:25]Because if he if he exists, surely there's going to be an

[38:30]afterlife.

[38:29]There's going to be accountability.

[38:31]There's going to be uh heaven and hell and uh punishment and

[38:36]reward and so on.

[38:37]And so I'd rather bet on that than reject God, reject his

[38:42]laws, reject his religion, and then suddenly end up finding out that

[38:47]he does uh exist.

[38:50]And so he presents it as a bet, which is, you know,

[38:52]kind of weird and and I think um counter counterintuitive, right?

[38:58]Um but what's interesting is that this was not an invention of

[39:03]uh Pascal but rather the first person as far as I know

[39:09]to make this argument was the commander of the faithful the imi

[39:16]actually quotes him as reading this uh poem it's a quartet uh

[39:22]so it's two lines of uh of poetry but it's so beautiful

[39:24]and insightful the imam says The Imam basically says that the astrologologist

[39:43]uh or astrologer and the physician have claimed that there is no

[39:53]afterlife.

[39:50]There is no uh uh life after death.

[39:54]There's no God.

[39:58]there's no resurrection.

[39:56]So the IM then says, "Well, I told them, if what you

[40:04]say is true, then I haven't lost a thing.

[40:07]I lived a life just like you, and I've got nothing to

[40:11]lose.

[40:12]If it turns out that there is no afterlife, there's no resurrection,

[40:15]there's no heaven or hell.

[40:17]But if it turns out that I'm right, then you are the

[40:21]ones who will have to bear the burden of trying to explain

[40:26]this to God on the day of judgment.

[40:29]Um, so obviously this is poetry, but I think this was best

[40:33]illustrated and elucidated by imam.

[40:35]Uh the the incident is essentially uh Abdah who was what what

[40:44]was called at the time Zind or right is someone who believes

[40:52]uh in in uh the universe.

[40:53]So kind of like a deist uh but perhaps closer to an

[41:00]agnostic or an atheist.

[40:59]But Zindi is an avowed uh sworn atheist kind of like you

[41:06]know the priest the high priests of the atheist church that we

[41:09]now have.

[41:10]And I and I always by the way I'll mention this parathetically

[41:12]I always always find it funny that uh atheists accuse believers and

[41:17]theists of trying to force their belief down people's throats when in

[41:22]fact I find I find find it to be the opposite.

[41:25]It's the atheists that are always trying to disprove God's existence.

[41:28]Um, but anyway, I digress.

[41:31]So, Abdujah was that kind of atheist.

[41:38]He's always proitizing.

[41:37]He's trying to uh convince everybody that God doesn't exist.

[41:43]Which is why he kept going back and forth uh and had

[41:46]uh uh numerous meetings with Imam Assad Alisam to in order to

[41:52]engage with him uh in these discussions and he found the imam

[41:55]to be so incredibly humble and all while being astute and knowledgeable

[42:00]and decisive.

[42:01]But the imam was always hospitable towards him.

[42:04]Right?

[42:05]The IM never uh made any concessions to him.

[42:09]The IM never uh played him for a fool.

[42:13]The Imam never uh was overly kind of polite to him.

[42:17]But he was just humble and kind and gracious enough to the

[42:22]extent that Abuja when he had this particular encounter with Im saying

[42:30]think about that for a moment.

[42:34]um he doesn't recognize God uh or his existence but when he

[42:39]addresses IM he says to him my master and my lord which

[42:41]tells you about the imam and how he interacted with him anyway

[42:47]so the imam was performing the circumambulation the around thea during the

[42:52]season of sobarb comes to the imam he says to him the

[42:58]imam says to him what are you doing here you're not a

[43:01]Muslim in other you don't believe in God, so what are you

[43:05]doing in Mecca?

[43:04]And he said to the Imam that uh I'm just here to

[43:10]observe.

[43:11]I'm here to uh to to to look at the rituals uh

[43:14]that people engage in that are nonsensical, that are ridiculous, right?

[43:21]And he mentions that they throw pebbles at rocks and they uh

[43:27]circumambulate around a giant building.

[43:28]And so he he he was kind of, you know, mocking the

[43:32]rituals of Hajj.

[43:32]So the imam said to him, "Listen, this is no time for

[43:38]me to get into these pmical debates with you." Um, the Quran

[43:42]says, "You're not allowed to engage in these uh debates where you're

[43:45]trying to prove yourself right and your opponent wrong and whatnot.

[43:50]I don't want to engage with this right now." However, the imam

[43:53]said, "I will leave you one with one thought.

[43:59]If your claim is true that there is no God, there is

[44:03]no resurrection, there's no afterlife, there's no heaven, there's no hell, if

[44:07]that is true, again, the Imam is speaking with conviction.

[44:11]He's polite, but he's not making concessions.

[44:14]He's not selling out.

[44:15]He says to him, "If your claim is true, which it is

[44:20]not, then we both win.

[44:25]We both lay uh down in our graves.

[44:30]Nothing happens afterwards.

[44:31]We both enjoyed our lives.

[44:34]We both lived.

[44:33]We both uh enjoyed the little things in life as they say.

[44:38]If your claim is true, however, if our claim is true and

[44:48]it is as we say, again, no room for doubt, no room

[44:54]for hesitation, absolute conviction.

[44:55]If my claim and our claim and the claim of the vast

[45:01]majority of humans who have ever lived is true, and it is,

[45:05]we win, you lose.

[45:08]because you'll have to answer for your lack of recognition and surrender

[45:14]towards God.

[45:17]Whereas we surrendered to him, we believed in him.

[45:23]The hadith says this man, the atheist, looked at the Richard Dawkins

[45:27]of his day.

[45:28]He looked at his people, his friends, and he said to them,

[45:34]"I just felt something in my heart, some burning sensation.

[45:39]Something's not right.

[45:39]So take me back.

[45:42]I can't walk on my own two feet." The hadith says, "As

[45:47]soon as he did go back to his resting place, he fell

[45:52]down and died.

[45:52]He couldn't take it anymore.

[45:52]He felt the weight of the argument that the imam was making

[46:00]uh uh with him which is that if we even if we

[46:08]believe in God right and for whatever reason right in some hypothetical

[46:13]scenario in some impossible parallel universe it turns out that there is

[46:20]no afterlife there's no god so what what have we lost?

[46:24]But you stand to lose a great deal, right?

[46:27][snorts] And of course, you know, they they've tried to kind of

[46:31]address uh this argument by saying, "Oh, but what if what if

[46:36]it's a what if it's another god, right?

[46:38]What if the Christians uh believe in one god and then it

[46:40]turns out to be the Muslim God who is the true the

[46:45]one true God?" And exactly.

[46:45]So the argument is that the concept of the creator is one

[46:51]that the overwhelming majority of humans subscribe to.

[46:54]They accept it.

[46:56]They believe it.

[46:56]Yes.

[46:56]That a lot of times they will lose their way.

[47:01]They will ascribe attributes to God that are uh nonsensical that are

[47:07]contradictory to the essence of the creator.

[47:13]Um as one hadith says If an ant tries to imagine its

[47:24]lord and its creator, it will imagine that it has two horns

[47:28]or two antenny, right?

[47:32]Because it it is a for lack of a better term a

[47:33]natural human tendency to try to try and anthropomorphicize and to humanize

[47:41]and to idolize God so that we could sort of you know

[47:44]perceive him and see him and touch him and feel him and

[47:48]whatnot.

[47:47]Right?

[47:47]This is something that a lot of humans u you know struggle

[47:51]with at at certain points in their lives.

[47:54]But it's important to remember that God is beyond time and space.

[47:57]As you were saying earlier, God is too great.

[48:01]He is the creator of time and space.

[48:05]How could he be uh sort of uh limited or confined by

[48:08]uh time and space?

[48:10]So, here's another question which I don't know if we have a

[48:12]lot of time to debate it, but people often say, why is

[48:17]it that otherwise intelligent individuals rejects God?

[48:22]What do you have to say about that?

[48:27]Well, sometimes you find very intelligent people, very smart people that uh

[48:34]do things or believe in things that uh make you question their

[48:42]judgment.

[48:40]>> For example, Stephven Hawking who received uh many accolades and awards

[48:48]and uh held a very uh distinguished position >> at Cambridge University.

[48:54]>> Cambridge University.

[48:55]I think he was the chair of physics or something.

[48:58]>> Yeah, he was an astrophysicist.

[49:01]He was a a cosmologist.

[49:03]Uh he >> by the way th this is the side of

[49:07]him that you and I recognize.

[49:08]But for those of you who don't know who Stephen Hawings is,

[49:11]he's the one mentioned in the Epstein files.

[49:14]So >> Exactly.

[49:15]Exactly.

[49:16]So he's been mentioned 232 times and he engaged >> Wow.

[49:20]You looked it up.

[49:20]>> Yes.

[49:21]Okay.

[49:22]So he he also he also engaged in illicit parties with underage

[49:28]girls.

[49:27]So >> his uh the moral values that he abided by uh

[49:34]show that this guy had uh you know deep issues that he

[49:40]was struggling with [laughter] >> to say the least.

[49:43]You you might say that as an atheist, he's he doesn't believe

[49:46]in the principles that uh a person that believes in a higher

[49:52]authority would abide by or a person that believes in accountability would

[49:55]abide by.

[49:57]Yes, you know, this this this is a valid argument.

[49:59]Uh but for a person like him, you would really question his

[50:06]judgment.

[50:04]But can we say that this applies to his understanding of physics?

[50:09]I believe that uh he he refused his specialty is studying physics

[50:16]right but he refused to go beyond physics what's behind these laws

[50:21]and obvious >> so he recognizes the laws but not the law

[50:25]maker >> yes so you can't say that uh because he excels

[50:28]in physics then we can rely on him in his denial of

[50:33]the existence of god >> that's a that's a common that's a

[50:38]common misconception that people have towards as academics and and so on

[50:44]where because this person uh has a PhD at the end of

[50:46]his uh at the end of his title uh then whatever he

[50:50]says about God's existence must carry some weight >> or for example

[50:55]Isaac Newton who revolutionized mathemat mathematics and physics they say that he

[51:02]dedicated much of his time studying the biblical text about the end

[51:06]of times uh >> so he was a believer >> uh He

[51:09]he he was he was a believer but uh he he also

[51:13]believed in alchemy.

[51:15]He dedicated much of his time to alchemy.

[51:16]Yeah.

[51:17]So >> it was a complete waste of his uh of his

[51:18]time >> and energy and everything.

[51:22]So can we say that because uh because he's he's a he

[51:25]revolutionized physics.

[51:27]Can we say that uh that uh his uh everything else that

[51:33]he did and every view that he adopted should also be valid?

[51:37]>> Right.

[51:38]I mean a a a very good example of that is when

[51:41]you look at people who are you know incredibly accomplished in academia

[51:45]uh and science and other disciplines uh might turn out to be

[51:49]really lousy husbands.

[51:52]Uh so should you take marital advice from someone like that just

[51:56]because he happens to be a very skilled surgeon?

[51:59]The answer of course is no.

[52:00]But when it comes to God's existence somehow because this person is

[52:03]is you know uh an accomplished or recognized academic people you know

[52:11]uh they assume that whatever opinion he holds on any topic is

[52:13]one that is worthy of >> especially that to to be an

[52:19]atheist I believe is is totally unscientific because uh to deny the

[52:24]existence of God you need to study all the evidence out there

[52:26]and the evidence available to us as humans is very limited.

[52:31]You haven't traveled to outer space.

[52:33]There might be something out there.

[52:35]I think this is an argument that Imam uses in a >>

[52:38]he says to him, "Have you been to all of the other

[52:41]planets?

[52:41]Have you been to other um you know, solar systems?

[52:45]Have you explored even your own planet for you to say that

[52:49]God doesn't exist?" >> Um yeah, that that's absolutely true.

[52:51]And I and I I believe that uh people give too much

[52:57]credence uh and too much credit to such individuals when in fact

[53:00]uh they uh this isn't even their field um let alone them

[53:07]having any valid uh opinion on it.

[53:10]Uh so this doesn't answer the question though why do some otherwise

[53:14]intelligent people refuse to accept God?

[53:21]Um I think it's due to uh three primary reasons.

[53:24]Number one is maybe because they're sick and tired of organized religions.

[53:31]Uh and I uh >> so so they're looking for a disorganized

[53:35]religion.

[53:35]I think a comedian once said that if you're looking for a

[53:38]disorganized religion then uh Islam is your best bet.

[53:43][laughter] So uh >> I should say disorganized community not disorganized religion.

[53:48]>> So I I I believe that many religions uh fail to

[53:55]uh to address uh life's most important questions and this is I

[54:01]think one reason.

[54:03]The second reason is the corruption of religious leaders.

[54:05]Uh and the third reason is because of their rebellious nature.

[54:12]uh they in the in the case of uh Stephen Hawking uh

[54:15]the guy wanted to be free free free of any law free

[54:20]of any restrictions he wants to engage in whatever he he likes

[54:23]>> just wants to spend his time at Pedo Island and do

[54:28]whatever he wants >> well for me personally uh I think that

[54:30]number one we shouldn't put too much capital in people's academic credentials

[54:37]um we shouldn't uh give them more than they deserve in terms

[54:45]of respect and uh sort of consider them to be experts in

[54:49]every field.

[54:50]A lot of times these people as you were saying uh they

[54:54]happen to be you know physicists or cosmologists or mathematicians or what

[54:58]have you.

[54:59]uh but on the question of whether or not God exists, they

[55:02]have no expertise in this, right?

[55:04]And they are ultimately in many cases uh overtaken by base desires,

[55:11]right?

[55:12]Arrogance being uh one of the one of the biggest ones, right?

[55:18]Yes, it could be ignorance.

[55:19]It could be um you know, falling into the trap of um

[55:24]what's often referred to as the problem of evil or suffering.

[55:26]So it could be a misconception.

[55:28]It could be childhood trauma.

[55:29]It could be uh you know perhaps they were abused as children

[55:36]as is the case with some of these uh uh you know

[55:38]uh celebrity atheists and they've spoken about that openly.

[55:42]Um some of the things they they went through uh during their

[55:46]uh early formative years.

[55:48]It could be a whole host of different factors but I think

[55:51]for the most part um arrogance does play a very big role.

[55:55]I think it was Richard Dawkins uh who said that there is

[55:58]no evidence you could ever present me with that would change my

[56:01]mind about God's existence.

[56:05]I mean imagine the level of hubris.

[56:09]The arrogance is just off the charts for you to say that

[56:12]I'm not convinced as of yet, as of now.

[56:15]Right?

[56:16]But I will never be convinced no matter what you do, what

[56:19]you say, what evidence you present me with from now until the

[56:25]day of judgment.

[56:25]Uh no pun intended, I I will not be swayed by any

[56:30]of that.

[56:32]I mean, that's just arrogance pure and simple.

[56:35]Um and I think it was uh uh Christopher Hitchens who did

[56:39]an interview when he was you know he had terminal cancer at

[56:46]the time and uh the uh presenter uh asked him he said

[56:51]to him uh you know has your disease and your sickness your

[56:55]illness has it changed your mind about God's existence and his response

[56:59]was again so so shocking and telling uh he said no uh

[57:06]but I can tell you with the kind of certainty that I

[57:09]have about the sun rising in the morning tomorrow I have the

[57:14]same level of certainty excuse me and he said no uh and

[57:23]that hasn't changed my mind uh but I can tell you with

[57:25]the same level of certainty that I'm able to tell you that

[57:30]tomorrow the sun will rise I have absolute certainty cy that when

[57:35]I die, there are going to be rumors that uh toward the

[57:39]end of my life, I whispered something to the effect that I've

[57:44]now become a believer.

[57:45]And I'm telling you right now that those are nothing but baseless,

[57:48]false rumors.

[57:50]They're lies.

[57:52]I will never believe in God.

[57:54]Right?

[57:55]For someone to say that, right?

[57:56]I I I think that goes way beyond ignorance.

[57:59]That's just arrogance.

[58:00]That's hubris.

[58:02]And that's someone who's not willing to open their eyes no matter

[58:05]what.

[58:05]Right?

[58:06]It's like the, you know, the Abu Jah of our days.

[58:07]They're just not open to the idea whatsoever for whatever reason uh

[58:14]that it might be.

[58:14]Um which which brings me to another question which is about science

[58:18]and faith and whether they're able to coexist without any contradiction.

[58:25]Uh and what's your take on that?

[58:29]Well, I think that uh science directs us towards gods.

[58:31]Uh this is why we find that in the Quran, Allah subhana

[58:36]wa ta'ala in uh innumerable verses, he uh examines uh scientific uh

[58:44]phenomenon to uh to direct us towards the creator.

[58:49]when he talks about uh how the camel was created or when

[58:56]he talks about the stars, the moon, the sun.

[59:01]Uh I think that uh science and uh uh and religion complement

[59:05]each other.

[59:08]Mhm.

[59:05]>> Uh and I think that the problem with uh the people

[59:11]who who deny God uh through science, they're trying to detach the

[59:17]natural world world from the creator.

[59:20]But once you uh you look at things from the prism of

[59:25]God, everything will make sense and everything would be uh mind-boggling and

[59:31]you would uh uh I think you'd marvel at the beauty of

[59:40]the universe uh in a much more deeper and more profound way.

[59:42]>> Listen to me.

[59:43]You wouldn't remain exactly >> you wouldn't remain in that uh position

[59:46]of just you know being fond of something that you've seen.

[59:50]>> Uh there's this link between the creator and his creation.

[59:55]>> Yeah.

[59:57]H how could you even marvel at the exquisitness of the universe

[60:02]when you don't believe that there was any purpose or design behind

[60:06]it?

[60:07]I if anything it should make you confused and um you know

[60:11]even even the so-called laws of the universe shouldn't make any sense

[60:16]if there was no purpose or design behind them but um but

[60:19]yeah I I I absolutely agree and I think one of my

[60:24]favorite examples for that uh the the complimentary nature of science and

[60:26]religion is when we look at uh let's say the internal combustion

[60:34]engine uh the engine of a are right.

[60:37]If if you don't know how the engine functions, I for one

[60:39]have no clue how how an engine works.

[60:42]But if if you don't know how it works, then you know

[60:46]uh for you this is this is an interesting uh piece of

[60:52]sort of human engineering, right?

[60:54]But when you when you recognize that this engine is made up

[60:59]of thousands of parts sourced from all over the world, uh all

[61:05]of which are designed to produce energy that would then give motion

[61:09]to a pile of metal and plastic and whatnot and allow your

[61:14]vehicle, your car to move um with comfort and ease and whatnot.

[61:21]Uh now you've you've looked at it from a scientific lens, right?

[61:27]But if you understand how an engine works, does that contradict your

[61:33]belief in the the engineer and the designer and the manufacturing staff

[61:38]and and and the plant and and the factory that brought it

[61:43]into existence?

[61:45]Absolutely not.

[61:47]When you understand the sophistication of an engine, if anything, that should

[61:52]push you to recognize the complexity, the the design skills, the the

[61:57]power that went into the the manufacturing process, right?

[62:01]If anything, it makes you appreciate it even more uh and to

[62:04]recognize the one that built it, the one that designed it and

[62:09]engineered it.

[62:08]>> And especially that you can't hack the system.

[62:11]You'll need to harness the law.

[62:13]you need to abide by the laws.

[62:15]>> So you uh what they're trying to to do is decipher

[62:19]the code and try to re-edit it, try to change it.

[62:25]You can't change the law.

[62:25]The law is a law, a universal law, physics, the laws of

[62:30]physics, the laws of chemistry.

[62:31]These are stringent laws that you can't change.

[62:34]All you can do is just uh you know with the flow,

[62:36]deal with them.

[62:37]>> Deal with them.

[62:38]>> Exactly.

[62:39]Okay.

[62:40]So my next question is does suffering argue against God or point

[62:46]toward him?

[62:47]For me personally uh we said earlier in the discussion that uh

[62:55]there comes a point in every person's life and I think there's

[62:58]a hadith to that effect which says that every single person will

[63:02]experience a a problem a challenge a a trauma uh some kind

[63:10]of a tribulation that will allow the individual to sever hope from

[63:16]all natural means and cling on to the only remaining hope which

[63:25]is God.

[63:26]And it's at that moment that the veils are lifted and that

[63:30]you recognize God with a level of conviction and certainty and belief

[63:35]that is akin to being able to see him, right?

[63:40]And so if you if we look at trials and tribulations with

[63:48]that lens, um like the person who shipwrecked, the the one whose

[63:52]boat is sinking, if we look at trials from that lens, it

[63:55]becomes it becomes a blessing, right?

[63:59]You you you recognize that these tribulations are not meant to punish

[64:07]you.

[64:08]rather they're meant to clear your conscience.

[64:12]They're meant to uh clean the windshield, if you like.

[64:14]They're they're meant to remove all the uh obstructions and distractions that

[64:21]have kept you away from God so that you could connect with

[64:27]him on a deep visceral level.

[64:28]And so, uh, I absolutely believe that trials and suffering is some

[64:35]of the greatest ways and avenues to connecting with God.

[64:40]Um, that said, uh, I don't think that's the only way uh,

[64:45]in which we could recognize Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala.

[64:47]Are there uh, any other things you would recommend?

[64:51]I think the stories of the Quran uh it these traumatic experiences

[64:54]can happen to you and remove these veils and you can connect

[64:58]with God or it can happen to someone that you know that

[65:02]can bring you much closer to God or through the stories uh

[65:07]of the Quran.

[65:09]For example, in the story of Musa Alisam during the Exodus uh

[65:12]Allahh gives them an address.

[65:16]So they leave uh Egypt in the middle of the night.

[65:18]They were uh a persecuted minority.

[65:21]They leave in the middle of the night and the address that

[65:28]uh Allahh gives Moses and the Israelites leads them to the uh

[65:33]the the shores of the Red Sea.

[65:35]So they reach a dead end basically.

[65:39]Uh so the uh some of the Israelites began to question uh

[65:46]Moses' authority.

[65:45]They show up expecting a ship or or some kind of bridge

[65:52]or something >> safe haven or so uh but then suddenly they

[65:55]reach the the sea and they said that we wish if we

[66:01]never left Egypt especially when they saw uh Pharaoh and his soldiers

[66:05]100,000 armed men they were chasing them and they saw them they

[66:13]were within a very close uh you know distance from reaching them.

[66:18]Uh, MS said, "So when you recite these verses and uh, picture

[66:24]yourself in that situation and how Allahh creates that scenario and then

[66:31]he comes to your rescue." Again, this goes back to the discussion

[66:36]about the sufferings that can happen.

[66:36]Sometimes anything can happen to you whether you reach a dead end

[66:42]in your relationship or in your career.

[66:46]And incidentally, Allah when he speaks in about uh dead ends in

[66:51]in a relationship, there's always uh uh there's always Allahh always says

[67:00]>> he gives hope.

[67:01]>> He gives hope.

[67:03]He can open a new door.

[67:03]He can open a new avenue for you.

[67:07]Uh so through these stories, the story of Ysef, the story of

[67:10]MS, the story of Ibraim, uh even though they were prophets of

[67:14]God, but what they experienced was was very traumatic.

[67:20]Uh so the difference between us and them is that they had

[67:23]firm belief in God.

[67:25]They knew that God has the ability to to help them to

[67:27]rescue them.

[67:29]Uh I think that reciting the Quran and I think this is

[67:31]one of the reasons why it's so rewarding to recite the Quran

[67:37]especially especially during the month of Ramadan it's because it it arouses

[67:42]the the mind it makes you think makes you contemplate I think

[67:46]that we are able to recognize Allah subhana wa ta'ala through a

[67:54]moment of deep reflection while reciting dua tumali for example it could

[68:01]happen when when you when you're reciting dua or dua or when

[68:05]visiting the shrines of the there's one hadith uh that says when

[68:13]you visit Im Hussein when a person goes to to to the

[68:16]shrine of Im Hussein God whispers to him meaning Allah subhana wa

[68:21]ta'ala is so close to to to this individual that he he

[68:26]whispers to him rather than speaking speak to him loudly.

[68:29]Um so whether it's during z or uh in a supplication or

[68:38]uh during or while reciting the Quran or whatever the case might

[68:43]be.

[68:44]If we focus and have sincerity and um and conviction and [snorts]

[68:51]pray uh with insistence that Allah subhanana wa ta'ala uh you know

[68:56]familiarizes us with him as we say in the famous dua oh

[69:08]Allah introduce yourself to me make me recognize you because if you

[69:14]don't uh introduce yourself to me then I won't recognize your messenger

[69:18]I won't recognize if I don't recognize the messenger I won't recognize

[69:22]uh uh your vice gerant and if I don't recognize your vice

[69:25]gerant meaning the imam of the time I will have lost my

[69:30]faith I will lose my way uh completely and so to ask

[69:32]Allah subhanahu wa ta'ala uh is an important thing that we should

[69:37]also do >> is what we're going through as a community today.

[69:44]Um, is that one of those moments?

[69:49]Uh, should we capitalize on uh on the tribulations that we're witnessing

[69:55]right now?

[69:55]>> I I think so.

[69:57]Even if if nothing happens, uh Allahh will test our uh our

[70:07]faith in him.

[70:06]Uh Allahh will test our trust in him.

[70:09]whether you trust in God.

[70:13]How is that tested?

[70:13]This has to happen to us.

[70:14]If you trust God, then when you reach a a dead end

[70:19]in life, you will use that trust.

[70:20]will utilize your trust in Allah subhana wa ta'ala and uh uh

[70:26]the the verse in the Quran says when the prophets uh reached

[70:34]a stage where they lost all hope >> absolute despair and >>

[70:40]absolute despair that's when we saved them that's when we make >>

[70:48]divine intervention happened >> and it's a verse in the Quran Allah

[70:51]says, "Every time we we sent a prophet, an apostle to a

[70:57]community, to a nation, we made them go through challenging times and

[71:04]afflictions so that they would turn to God.

[71:07]And we should never underestimate the power of dua." And I think

[71:11]that through communicating with Allahh and beseeching him uh our uh this

[71:16]will further cement our faith in him.

[71:21]Uh there does seem to be a lot of fear, a lot

[71:22]of anxiety, a lot of um you know uh stress about uh

[71:30]what could happen.

[71:33]Uh the threat uh of war is looming.

[71:37]The drums of war are being beaten.

[71:40]And there are many many people uh millions of uh individuals devout

[71:44]Muslims followers of the B who feel threatened and uh terrified by

[71:50]uh all of this.

[71:54]And I think once again uh this is a this is a

[71:59]trial on the level of the entire nation, the level of the

[72:03]community.

[72:04]And if this becomes a catalyst and it uh kind of nudges

[72:08]us uh toward Allah subhanahu wa tala and toward prayer and supplication

[72:13]and toward you know uh asking God for divine intervention uh especially

[72:20]through uh sending his uh uh uh vice gerant and the imam

[72:29]of the time to bring about universal justice.

[72:32]Right.

[72:33]uh small periods of relief are great and you know this is

[72:36]something that we uh yearn for especially when uh all hope is

[72:42]lost.

[72:41]However, I think a lot more important than that is for us

[72:46]to pray for universal uh justice and for all forms of inequity

[72:50]and oppression to be obliterated through uh the awaited savior uh the

[72:56]imam of our time inshallah.

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Knowing God - The Cave Podcast - ft. Sayed Mostafa Modarresi

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