The Mahdi, Occultation, and the Latter Days (Pt. 1) - The Cave Podcast

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Sayed Mahdi Modarresi
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In Lectures

Shi‘a Muslims believe humanity’s future includes divine justice led by the Hidden Imam — but what does that mean for our lives today? Why is belief in Imam Mahdi central in our faith? What wisdom lies behind the occultation? How should ‘waiting’ translate into action? Are current global crises signs of reappearance? How can we prepare for the Imam?

Transcript

[0:12]belief in the awaited savior and specifically Imi may Allah hasten his

[0:26]reappearance is a central doctrine within Shia Islam.

[0:28]This is one of the reasons that we uh hold a unique

[0:33]set of beliefs that differentiate us from every other creed, every other

[0:38]religion and every other denomination.

[0:41]We believe that humanity's future lies in divine justice led by God's

[0:52]vice gerant, Imam al- Mahi.

[0:54]But what does that mean for our lives today?

[0:59]Why is this belief so central to our uh doctrine and our

[1:04]belief system?

[1:07]Uh how are we able to connect with this concept?

[1:10]How do we prepare for the Imam's reappearance?

[1:14]What are the reasons that the Imam is still in occultation over

[1:19]a thousand years after he first went uh into occultation and disappeared

[1:25]from the scene at least as far as people were able to

[1:30]see him and engage with him.

[1:32]All of these questions and more we will discuss in this episode

[1:39]of the cave podcast.

[1:39]And with me here uh I have the distinct pleasure of hosting

[1:46]his eminence Mustafa al-Mudi uh who is also my brother.

[1:53]Thank you for having me again.

[1:58]It's a pleasure and uh no uh less because it has to

[2:01]do our discussion has to do with the uh imam of the

[2:07]time.

[2:08]Uh a concept that every single Shia Muslim uh feels u uh

[2:12]closely connected to at least on a theoretical level.

[2:16]Uh but that's why we're here.

[2:18]The idea is to try and take it out of the theoretical

[2:23]space, the abstract notion and the concept of the imam to something

[2:27]that is more visceral, something more personal.

[2:30]And uh that's why uh we've got a few questions that we'd

[2:35]like to discuss uh inshallah.

[2:37]And I also think that uh this discussion is of paramount importance

[2:43]during the month of Ramadan because uh when Allahh speaks about the

[2:50]month of Ramadan uh in a very interesting way he says Ramadan

[2:58]when he's describing the month of Ramadan he describes it in this

[3:05]way he says that the month of Ramadan witnessed the uh uh

[3:08]the uh descent of the Quran.

[3:12]The Quran was revealed during the month of Ramadan.

[3:15]So the whole discussion then revolves around the Quran as if what

[3:19]makes this month important is the Quran.

[3:22]Right.

[3:23]>> The most distinctive feature of the holy month.

[3:25]>> Exactly.

[3:27]And then in when he speaks about the revelation of the Quran

[3:33]during the month of Ramadan, this is this is how he speaks.

[3:39]He says when was the Quran revealed during then he shifts the

[3:45]discussion to speaking about and the importance of and the pivot of

[3:51]is the representative representative of God the vice gerant of God and

[3:55]this is why I think that um speaking about mahi especially during

[3:59]the month of Ramadan is very important [sighs] >> and I I

[4:05]think we should start right there.

[4:06]Um there's no question that belief in Imam al- Mahi is so

[4:14]central to our faith and our uh belief system.

[4:19]Um but the question is why?

[4:19]Why is it that uh you know as opposed to some people

[4:23]perceiving it as some kind of a peripheral matter uh something that

[4:29]we must believe in in order to be uh sort of welcomed

[4:32]into the community of Shia Muslims uh and so it's it's a

[4:38]it's a box that we tick right we also believe uh you

[4:40]know we believe in the prophet we believe in the Quran we

[4:44]believe in 12 imams one of whom happens to be Immadi but

[4:46]it's a lot more than than that, isn't it?

[4:49]And so the question is why is belief in the MAI so

[4:55]central to our creed?

[4:55]So just to uh echo what you said in the introduction, I

[5:01]believe that uh this discussion gained friction uh recently because the Shia

[5:08]throughout history and for centuries were sidelined, were marginalized, were oppressed and

[5:17]suppressed by um hostile governments.

[5:20]And uh just in recent times that the Shia uh gained a

[5:25]little bit of prominence.

[5:26]Um I think it started from the time of u grandazi um

[5:35]and then after him was >> he was the one behind the

[5:40]tobacco revolution.

[5:40]>> Exactly.

[5:41]Yeah.

[5:42]The fatwa that he issued and there is a link between his

[5:45]fatwa and immediate.

[5:46]And then after him came Sheikh Muhammad Ashazi who led the revolution

[5:53]uh the uh the 20th century revolution in Iraq.

[5:59]And then after him camei and then say and then until today.

[6:08]Uh so uh the a lot of people wanted to know the

[6:17]Shia and one distinguishing factor that distinguishes us Shia from all the

[6:21]other denominations and faiths and and religions is Immi uh it's what

[6:27]adds vitality to the uh to the Shia.

[6:31]uh this is why people began to inquire about my mati from

[6:37]world leaders if you remember uh I think it was two three

[6:42]years ago that the former American president said that I've been learning

[6:46]about the mati even though we have u we have a whole

[6:53]belief system but uh what stands out about our belief system is

[6:56]mai and you have senior government officials policy makers Um you know

[7:02]people from all walks of life are are all asking about about

[7:08]Imam Mai and I think they've understood that he is a central

[7:11]figure in our faith.

[7:14]He is the spirit of our religion.

[7:16]He is the spirit of our faith.

[7:19]We believe in Imam right.

[7:20]But what makes Imam so important is the fact that uh there

[7:28]is a living imam that is playing a huge role even though

[7:31]we can't see him, we don't have access to him, but he's

[7:36]playing a major role in our faith.

[7:38]He is the representative of meaning that uh our belief system only

[7:47]becomes relevant if we believe in immedi I'll speak about about this

[7:56]matter uh further inshallah >> to uh sort of further reinforce what

[8:02]you were saying uh you are absolutely correct in that interest in

[8:09]the uh living imam of the Shia community grew by means of

[8:13]the fact that uh our uh top religious leaders have often invoked

[8:22]his name when it comes to you know pivotal turning points in

[8:25]uh the history and development uh of the of the Shia community.

[8:30]you mentioned ali and the link between him and Imam Mahi or

[8:35]the fatwa and it's it's really interesting because the fatwa the text

[8:41]of the of the decree itself includes a reference to Imi uh

[8:45]when he says that today the use of tobacco uh is is

[8:56]uh tantamount to rejecting the 12th IM uh and that's not because

[9:00]uh he was trying to sort of get to rally everyone in

[9:07]the Shiah community behind him.

[9:08]Uh but rather there is a sort of a backstory about how

[9:12]he uh beseeched the Imam and he asked the imam for uh

[9:16]guidance as to how to deal with the crisis at the time

[9:18]which we don't want to get into.

[9:22]uh but the fact that he linked uh you know the idea

[9:25]of insubordination and not acting in accordance with the decree to rejecting

[9:31]the imam uh that would not have happened without the imam's explicit

[9:36]consent.

[9:37]uh and so uh interest in the 12 imam grew because I

[9:43]mean put yourself in the position of one of these world leaders

[9:46]right imperial powers uh people who are trying to engage with the

[9:49]Shia community positively negatively whichever way you want to look at it

[9:56]and you look at the power vested in these religious scholars uh

[10:00]and how their word is is is taken so seriously by the

[10:07]Shia uh community around the world.

[10:08]Uh and yet the the scholars themselves are saying listen whatever power

[10:14]we have that's vested in us is something that we draw from

[10:17]the 12 imam and our living leader.

[10:20]And so then you know over the last few years you've got

[10:26]US presidents, secretaries of state, the Saudi crown prince, people openly talking

[10:31]about this.

[10:30]I mean these are not people who have delegated the task of

[10:36]investigating the role of the imam to some you know advisers or

[10:38]some think tank.

[10:40]No, they themselves are saying hey this is important enough for me

[10:44]to take time out of my schedule and investigate and sort of

[10:47]you know try and educate myself about this concept.

[10:51]And so yeah that makes it incredibly important.

[10:54]Um, and if if the other side is taking it so seriously,

[10:59]I think it goes without saying that we have to do the

[11:02]exact same thing, if not more.

[11:03]Um, so again, the the the the question about why it's so

[11:09]central to our belief.

[11:09]My take on that is that belief in the imam isn't just

[11:15]a matter of geopolitics, right?

[11:16]It's not just a matter of uh the imam playing a central

[11:19]political or military role uh in our uh uh you know in

[11:26]the in the community's uh sort of uh uh position in in

[11:30]the world uh but rather because it's a multi-dimensional paradigm uh that

[11:34]encompasses religion in its entirety according to our narrations is that he

[11:41]is going to which is a statement that we find uh being

[11:49]echoed and uttered by uh you know multiple members of the household

[11:56]of purity uh starting with the holy prophet all the way down

[11:59]to the imam himself who says that I am going to fill

[12:03]the earth with justice and equity uh after it's been filled with

[12:10]injustice oppression and tyranny and so this is about God ultimately achieving

[12:17]victory, right?

[12:17]Because we can all say that God is going to put his,

[12:23]you know, power and grandeur on full display on the day of

[12:28]judgment.

[12:27]But what about life on this earth?

[12:32]What about uh, you know, the over 100 billion people that have

[12:35]lived on this planet so far?

[12:36]And God only knows how many more people are going to live

[12:42]here.

[12:43]seeing and experiencing and feeling the full brunt of the oppression and

[12:50]injustice to no end, right?

[12:50]What happens, you know, after all of this?

[12:55]Is it conceivable that God's religion and his vice jerants and his

[13:00]apostles and prophets would just be oppressed and killed and uh believers

[13:05]being you know uh uh at the receiving end of all of

[13:08]this injustice and nothing happens until the day of judgment?

[13:13]The answer of course is no.

[13:14]God, one of one of God's attributes is uh the the grandiose

[13:22]nature of God refuses to allow uh despots and tyrants and disbelievers

[13:27]to win even in this world.

[13:29]And so uh that I think uh explains why belief in the

[13:34]Mahi is so central.

[13:34]But in addition to that, there are roles that the Imam is

[13:40]going to play uh which require divine justice uh on this earth

[13:44]even before the afterlife.

[13:45]And I think if we look at dua and there are references

[13:49]that we could sort of use to to to reach that conclusion.

[13:56]For instance, when we say where is the one who's been reserved

[14:04]to revive God's laws and injunctions uh meaning that you know God's

[14:10]religion was revealed only to be sidelined and you know for the

[14:18]for the to dismissed and to be nipped in the bud uh

[14:21]as soon as the prophet was laid to rest.

[14:24]That doesn't make any sense.

[14:28]God's religion, God's divinely inspired books, these matter.

[14:31]And for them to to not be applied, to not even get

[14:36]a chance is again inconceivable.

[14:38]uh or when we say in dua once again which by the

[14:42]way is attributed to to Imi himself where is the one uh

[14:52]in whom hope is is laid to revive the book of Allah

[14:59]subhana wa t'ala not just the Quran but also the previous revelations

[15:05]where's the one who is going to uh uh extinguish and destroy

[15:10]the uh the people of insolence, the people of uh oppression.

[15:18]And I think this is probably the most not the most important

[15:21]perhaps, but the one that's closest to our hearts.

[15:25]Where is the one who's going to uh restore honor and dignity

[15:29]to the believers and uh the one who is going to humiliate

[15:32]God's enemies.

[15:34]So all of these roles that the Imam plays, they're not just

[15:38]about some uh insignificant part of our faith.

[15:42]This is about reviving God's religion which makes belief in the Imam

[15:46]so critical.

[15:48]And I and I also think that uh without this dimension uh

[15:52]like Imam's role, the Imam's role in the future uh life would

[15:55]become so uh nonsensical with his divine authority.

[16:04]He's not intervening and as you mentioned uh oppression is in every

[16:09]corner of the world and there is injustice inequality.

[16:12]uh so uh the divine system need to intervene uh to ch

[16:18]to change the world order and to change the status quo and

[16:22]I think this is why we find many world leaders uh talk

[16:25]about this issue in a negative light uh because uh they they

[16:32]don't like it when you talk about divine intervention uh it's hard

[16:37]for them to believe that God may intervene but I also think

[16:42]that it's not just about the future Uh the belief in Imi

[16:47]plays a central role in our belief because uh as mentioned in

[16:51]the Quran and this is not pure theology.

[16:53]Uh the moment Allahh wanted to create man uh he made the

[17:01]declaration to the angels by saying I am appointing a vice jarant

[17:08]someone to represent me.

[17:09]And if and if we contemplate in the wordhif we could uh

[17:16]perhaps uh comprehend and understand the weight of this word uh Allah

[17:21]didn't say I am appointing a prophet I'm sending a messenger an

[17:25]apostle no he's saying that I am appointing a khalifa in simple

[17:32]words is when a king is about to leave is about to

[17:37]die and he appoints someone appoints someone to uh succeed him to

[17:41]take his his his uh occupy his position to take his role.

[17:45]He will be assigned with his >> authority >> authority basically.

[17:49]So Allah subhana wa ta'ala because he's he's different from his creation

[17:54]he doesn't materialize he is saying that I am appointing a khalifa

[17:57]someone that has my authority you might say that this is this

[18:04]is a form of exaggeration a form of but no when we

[18:06]look at the Quran we find that Allahh gives this authority >>

[18:11]and Allahh gives this authority to the prophet you obey the prophet

[18:20]you're obeying God and if you omit the role of the if

[18:26]if you don't believe in the presence of uh God's then what

[18:30]you're doing uh you basically what you're saying is that Allahh doesn't

[18:34]have an authority on this on earth because >> everyone can wreak

[18:40]havoc here and do whatever they want and God doesn't play much

[18:43]of a role and that doesn't make any sense >> not just

[18:46]that but his authority is given to this man as per the

[18:50]Quran.

[18:50]So if he is removed from the equation, Allah doesn't have authority.

[18:54]And this is why we have in multiple supplications uh make yourself

[19:00]known to me.

[19:03]>> I will never know who your prophet is.

[19:04]And if if I don't know who your prophet is, I will

[19:08]never know who your is.

[19:11]your proof on earth is and if I don't know who the

[19:15]is or the famous mentioned anyone that dies not knowing who the

[19:21]imam of his time is dies the death of people during the

[19:27]pagan era even if they pray they fast they think they're uh

[19:34]uh communicating with God believing in God but removing >> ignorance >>

[19:38]uh there is a hadith by im Bakar Alisam which I think

[19:43]uh looks at another dimension to [clears throat] this uh this this

[19:48]paradigm this creed that we have and why it's so important and

[19:56]this is more of a a positive uh perspective if you like

[20:00]uh and that is the actualization of human potential again in paradise

[20:07]humans become superhumans they're you know uh God's authority in paradise is

[20:13]absolute um everyone is a believer in paradise everyone is one who

[20:18]submits to God and it's a place that God created uh not

[20:24]to establish his authority but rather to allow the believers to enjoy

[20:29]the fruits of their good deeds and whatnot but in this world

[20:32]is it possible to actualize human potential without this khalifa without this

[20:38]divine intervention The answer is no.

[20:41][snorts] And so points this out when he says when the when

[20:48]the one uh who is the riser among the family of the

[20:56]prophet rises may Allah's reappearance he places his hand on the heads

[21:04]of the people of that time.

[21:09]The Imam perfects human intellect at that time.

[21:14]In other words, he creates through divine backing and support the conditions

[21:18]that are ripe for humans to achieve their full potential, for their

[21:24]intellect to be perfected, for their morality and ethics to be to

[21:33]reach their uh full sort of form.

[21:35]And uh this is why we have a lot of narrations about

[21:40]uh the imam introducing new disciplines and sciences and solving uh uh

[21:46]you know scientific problems and filling the gaps in human intellect and

[21:52]human knowledge and so forth.

[21:53]So human potential can only be achieved through the imam which makes

[21:57]it so incredibly important for the future of humanity.

[22:02]life would flourish during the time of the imam.

[22:07]And um the uh in one of the duas we say he

[22:10]is the spring of humanity.

[22:14]And another hadith states that uh when he reappears and the people

[22:20]witnessing uh his time would wish if the people that had uh

[22:24]passed away, departed this world would come back to witness the change

[22:28]and the transformation of of the world which which by the way

[22:34]I wrote an article about this recently and I think it is

[22:38]so incredibly insightful and uh and mesmeri izing at the same time

[22:47]that people who are already in paradise enjoying their existence in a

[22:52]way that you know you and I and mere mortals can't even

[22:57]comprehend would find something happening on this earth that [snorts] is so

[23:02]enticing and so beautiful that they would wish to leave paradise and

[23:06]come back to life.

[23:06]>> I mean that just blows my mind.

[23:11]So whatever happens during the reign of the of God's vice gerant

[23:14]I is is you know something that would that would entice the

[23:18]people in paradise to come back >> and there's a verse in

[23:24]the Quran that refers to this uh to this uh period in

[23:26]in in time uh Allahh says uh that's when the light of

[23:36]the uh of the lord would shine and illuminate life.

[23:41]Um because we're living in darkness.

[23:44]Uh we're like uh [clears throat] frogs living in a swamp, not

[23:47]realizing that they're living in a swamp.

[23:48]>> That it's a swamp.

[23:49]>> That it's a swamp.

[23:51]Even though the Quran says that we would live a blissful life.

[23:57]This is not the blissful life that Allahh promised.

[23:59]>> Disease, sickness, war, inequality, oppression.

[24:02]I mean the if if if we uh contemplate thoroughly uh in

[24:09]the uh in the dua that you made reference to dua it's

[24:12]as if the imam is is enticing us to uh to think

[24:18]about how the world will change in the future and this is

[24:24]not the life that Allahh promised us >> absolutely and uh I

[24:29]remember once I received a message from a sister I don't know

[24:32]much about her, but essentially her message was one of complete and

[24:39]utter despair.

[24:38]And she was uh she told me essentially that she's contemplating suicide.

[24:42]And at the time I I wrote a a response back to

[24:47]her, but one of the main points that I focused on was

[24:53]that there is so much hope that you could look forward to

[24:56]the time of the reappearance of the imam.

[24:59]You don't know when it's going to happen.

[25:01]If you cut your life short right now because of desperation, because

[25:04]of hopelessness, because of the problems that you're going through, you're going

[25:08]to miss out on all of that.

[25:09]>> Um, for sure.

[25:12]Uh, you know, whereas if you whereas if you wait, if you

[25:18]uh uphold your faith and belief and keep that that hope alive,

[25:22]right, when it happens, you'll realize just, you know, what a terrible

[25:26]mistake that would have been had you committed suicide.

[25:29]And so there's no question.

[25:30]And a lot has been said about how beautiful that era and

[25:33]that time is going to be.

[25:36]Uh and uh it's important that we communicate this amongst ourselves but

[25:41]also to non-Muslims.

[25:41]And you know I once said in a in a short clip

[25:46]that I recorded that we uh as as Shia Muslims are the

[25:51]only ones who believe in a bright future for humanity.

[25:52]Everybody else believes in some kind of a savior but usually that

[25:56]savior is exclusive to them.

[26:01]it's exclusive to to Jews and Christians and whatnot.

[26:03]The rapture as Christians uh believe in it.

[26:07]Whereas we're saying that humanity will flourish.

[26:09]The world will shine with God's light.

[26:12]It'll be a beautiful time that is indescribably exquisite.

[26:15]And so, you know, that's something that needs to be uh sort

[26:20]of um you know, we need to we need to preach that

[26:22]and we need to uh uh tell others about this so that

[26:27]they also look forward to it.

[26:28]>> And I think SA one of the ways to do this

[26:31]is to uh uh to try to convince the people that we

[26:37]as humans will not be able to do this on our own.

[26:42]Uh >> we've tried we've tried so many times with different systems,

[26:45]different beliefs and whatnot, but it just doesn't work.

[26:46]It keeps getting worse.

[26:47]>> Recorded history is is 10,000 years 10,000 years old.

[26:52]So we have documented all the turning points, everything that happened during

[26:57]this 10,000 years and we failed.

[26:59]And uh uh there's this idea that that humanity uh will evolve

[27:06]and we don't need the MAI.

[27:07]we'll be able to reach the shores on our own.

[27:11]And we as we can see what what's happening in the world

[27:17]today.

[27:14]This is rubbish.

[27:16]As we progress, we're regressing uh morally, economically, poverty is just becoming.

[27:24]Look at how uh uh how all the politicians are speaking about

[27:29]affordability when uh you know they participate in an election because they're

[27:34]saying that everything is just becoming more expensive and uh wealth disparity

[27:40]is a huge uh issue of discussion.

[27:42]let alone the the wars, the bloodshed, the carnage and everything that

[27:47]we see on the news is just absolutely dismal.

[27:50]>> And this is why there's this this hadith that says that

[27:54]when the Imam comes, he will eradicate poverty and people will not

[27:58]be uh in need of money even though all the treasures of

[28:02]of the earth will surface and he will ask the people anyone

[28:05]that needs money can come and take as much as as they

[28:10]want.

[28:11]Not a single person would come and say I need more money

[28:14]because they're so uh self-sufficient that uh there will be no poverty

[28:19]in the world when the imam reappears.

[28:22]So is there a wisdom behind the occultation of the imam?

[28:30]I mean a question that's been posed to us by fellow Muslims

[28:34]who don't subscribe to our belief system.

[28:37]Um and a question that I think increasingly a lot of Shia

[28:41]are asking especially at times of uh you know trial and and

[28:48]tribulation uh is why doesn't the imam come back?

[28:53]What wisdom lies behind the occultation of the imam?

[28:55]S I think that his presence is overwhelming and his presence emanates

[29:02]from the presence of Allah subhana wa ta'ala and I think that

[29:08]his uh not just immedi all the imams role their inconspicuous role

[29:13]is much greater than their conspicuous conspicuous role.

[29:18]So if during the imam the the the time of imi some

[29:21]people had access to the imam uh but uh >> most people

[29:27]didn't >> most people didn't but this is how they paved the

[29:29]way for the occultation and one man asks the imam he says

[29:33]to him that I sometimes I want to speak to you I

[29:35]want to send you a letter he said just just uh mo

[29:39]move your lips and I will hear you is the eyes of

[29:45]god he is the ears of god as we say in the

[29:52]the text for asking for permission to enter the >> absolutely.

[29:56]So I think what uh what the what religion is trying to

[30:02]teach us that his role is much greater than the role of

[30:05]that you go to and ask questions from the imam reflects the

[30:11]the the divine emotions.

[30:13]Uh so this is why uh we have a lot of instructions

[30:17]about how we need to deal with the imam of our time.

[30:24]He will be uh presented with our the actions what what we

[30:28]are doing during the week.

[30:31]every Monday and every Thursday, the Imam will be shown the and

[30:36]if he sees something uh a sin that we've committed, the IM

[30:44]would be uh unhappy or at times would be angry with us

[30:46]or if we've done something good, he would be happy with us.

[30:51]He would be pleased with us.

[30:52]And imam in one hadith to one of his companions he says

[30:57]to him that uh what matters in life is the satisfaction and

[31:03]the pleasure of your imam.

[31:04]So if everyone is pleased with you but the imam of your

[31:06]time is not pleased with you then you are doomed.

[31:09]But if the imam of your time is pleased with you and

[31:13]everyone else is displeased with you matters.

[31:14]>> Nothing matters.

[31:18]And I wish if the relationship with you is is a strong

[31:24]relationship and and my relationship with with the uh with everyone else

[31:33]is u ruins >> is in ruins.

[31:36]This is what matters.

[31:39]And this I think uh say the the discussion about Imam Mahi

[31:42]is a spirited discussion let alone uh his presence and uh and

[31:49]us feeling his presence in our life.

[31:52]So uh when when you harbor this feeling that the imam is

[31:55]uh has this oversight over us and it's a it's a verse

[31:59]in the Quran.

[31:58]Everything that we every claim that we make has a reference in

[32:03]the Quran.

[32:06]Yeah.

[32:06]Do what you do.

[32:09]Allah is seeing you.

[32:09]The prophet is seeing you.

[32:12]And the uh who is Allah?

[32:16]>> Obviously all don't know what we're up to, what we're what

[32:20]we've done.

[32:21]So >> and we have multiple narrations in this regard.

[32:22]>> It's a select group of a guy comes to imam knocks

[32:29]the door.

[32:30]He commits a sin and then the Imam who was inside the

[32:32]house um and there were many walls you know creating a barrier

[32:37]between him and the imam.

[32:42]Suddenly the imam uh raises his voice.

[32:42]He says uh enter inside the house and the imam uses this

[32:50]um >> derog not derogatory but sort of >> he admonishes him.

[32:54]Yeah.

[32:55]So, so, so the the man realizes that the imam was aware

[32:57]of of of what he did.

[33:01]So, he said, "Can you see see us?" He said, "If it

[33:05]wasn't for for our ability to see you, then what's the difference

[33:08]between us and everyone else?" And we have multiple hadith in in

[33:11]this uh in this regard.

[33:13]So when you >> even even uh prophet Isaam in the Quran

[33:16]tells his people that I can tell you what you've stored in

[33:21]your own homes which is the kind of knowledge that ordinary people

[33:24]are not prevy to but Jesus says that you know I'm I'm

[33:27]able to tell you >> exactly what you're storing in your home.

[33:30]>> So it's in the Quran.

[33:33]Uh so uh so basically uh our relationship with the Imam can

[33:38]be a very strong relationship and through the Imam uh you are

[33:44]building a relationship with Allah subhana t himself.

[33:45]Why?

[33:46]Because as we recite in in the dua he is the >>

[33:54]gate to God.

[33:54]>> Gate to God and through this gate you can approach Allah

[34:00]subhana wa ta'ala.

[34:01]is >> direction >> is not just direction.

[34:07]You seek uh to u to reach Allahh through him.

[34:16]Those who are close to Allahh seek nearness to him through the

[34:22]imam of our time.

[34:23]So I think if we change our perception uh regarding the imam

[34:28]this will change the calculus and we will feel his overwhelming presence.

[34:31]>> Now I came across multiple a hadith which I think are

[34:36]important for us to reference here as to the wisdom behind the

[34:40]imam's occultation.

[34:42]Uh and there are various groups of traditions talking about different dimensions

[34:48]of why the imam went into occultation.

[34:51]uh the first one being is that this is a means of

[34:53]testing the believers right it is very difficult not being in the

[35:03]physical presence of your father uh often makes uh you know uh

[35:07]children act and behave in a manner that's different right when their

[35:11]father is watching them uh they're at their best behavior but when

[35:17]the father is gone and so Allahhana ta wants to test us

[35:21]uh for instance One prophetic hadith says he's speaking about the imam

[35:29]and he says the one who is going to go into occultation

[35:32]and disappear from the perception of his followers and his uh and

[35:39]his friends.

[35:44]The ones who are going to uphold belief in him are only

[35:51]this group of people.

[35:54]He says the ones whose hearts have been tested whether or not

[36:00]they're capable of uh retaining that faith.

[36:04]The commander of the faithful says in one hadith by God I

[36:09]will be killed and so will my two children meaning I im

[36:14]Hassan and Im Hussein which is the Imam prophesying essentially about future

[36:19]events there is going to be one of my uh offspring one

[36:26]of my descendants who's going to be uh brought about by God

[36:32]at in the latter days He's going to seek uh a restoration

[36:40]of justice for our blood that was shed.

[36:45]And he is going to be sent in order to sift through

[36:49]the people and to distinguish those who are righteous from those who

[36:56]are not until the ignorant ones will say.

[37:01]In other words, the Imam's occultation is at least partly uh due

[37:08]to the fact that God wants to uh uh want to distinguish

[37:11]the ones who have true faith from those who don't.

[37:15]And those who don't have true faith are the ones who are

[37:17]going to say that the family of Allah you know they God

[37:22]doesn't want anything to do with them.

[37:23]Look at what happened to them.

[37:25]They were massacred and killed one after the other but nothing happened

[37:28]as a result of that.

[37:29]Imam Alisam, interestingly enough, mentions another hadith which I'd like to share

[37:34]because it kind of uh elucidates this concept a little further.

[37:39]He says God wants to uh to test the true followers of

[37:50]the So then comes along and says um I think I don't

[38:06]have the full text of the hadith here.

[38:08]when the when the fifth of the uh descendants of the seventh

[38:13]meaning the seventh Imam uh is going to go into occultation.

[38:20]Beware of losing your faith and your religion.

[38:27]Make sure that no one is able to snatch your faith away

[38:32]from you.

[38:36]He's speaking to his son.

[38:41]The ones who the one who was going to uh to come

[38:46]back and and uh the awaited savior has to go into occultation

[38:54]until those who believed in this meaning believed in the prophet and

[38:59]his vice gerants and his appointed representatives and successors will abandon this

[39:04]faith.

[39:05]In other words, it might be easy especially today.

[39:09]I mean, if you compare our time with the time of uh

[39:11]the commander of the faithful, the time of iman, Imam Hussein, it

[39:16]was a lot more difficult to be a Shia.

[39:19]Now, it's so much easier with exceptions here and there.

[39:21]But broadly speaking, I could be a Shia, no one will want

[39:25]anything to do with me, especially living in Western countries and whatnot.

[39:28]You could you could claim to be a Shia, but the Imam

[39:30]says that most people will abandon their faith.

[39:37]It is a test that Allah subhana t wants to use to

[39:42]test his uh people with.

[39:45]So it is about being tested.

[39:47]It is about upholding your faith in in the face of adversity.

[39:50]Um the second group of a hadith um just allow me to

[39:57]interject here.

[39:58]There is a reference to this concept to this idea in the

[40:00]Quran.

[40:01]Uh in the first uh or the second verse of the second

[40:06]chapter which is the biggest chapter in the Quran.

[40:08]Allah says uh when he is describing the and the the Imam

[40:22]explicitly uh explains this verse by saying this is a reference to

[40:27]the im of of our time because to believe in the unseen

[40:35]uh is uh means to believe in everything attached to it.

[40:40]It means believing in religion because without him the uh the entire

[40:45]system would collapse.

[40:49]What is h is h just a a a concept that has

[40:57]no reality on the ground?

[40:58]The h is personified through the imam.

[41:02]And this is why the hadith says he is the compass.

[41:05]Whoever wrestles with the truth will be >> defeated.

[41:09]Yeah, he is the truth.

[41:13]True north.

[41:11]He is he is our compass.

[41:14]And this is why believing if you don't believe in him, it's

[41:17]like when Amir was killed, the woman uh she uh wrote a

[41:24]letter uh addressing the the the leaders of the time.

[41:26]>> The camel rider.

[41:27]>> The camel rider.

[41:29]She said uh do whatever you want to do.

[41:32]Ali has died.

[41:34]Ali has been killed.

[41:34]So he was the one that represented the uh the uh >>

[41:39]the truth >> the truth.

[41:41]Now he's gone.

[41:43]So believing in Mahi means believing in h believing in God.

[41:46]Believing in everything that religion preaches and this is why believing in

[41:52]the unseen is is is is an important uh element in uh

[41:57]in our faith.

[41:57]I came across uh several other categories of hadith which uh shed

[42:05]light on the wisdom behind the occultation.

[42:07]Um which I won't go into right now but just to give

[42:10]some some headlines.

[42:13]Uh one it is to protect him from harm's way uh to

[42:16]not allow the enemies to kill him.

[42:21]After all he's the one who's been uh preserved so as to

[42:24]establish divine justice on earth.

[42:25]And so all the tyrants, all the despots uh want nothing more

[42:31]than to destroy him.

[42:32]We have many traditions about that.

[42:34]The third is >> and it makes so much sense because every

[42:36]single IM before him was killed.

[42:40]All the prophets, this is how they treated >> Exactly.

[42:44]And so in order to ensure that the imam doesn't uh uh

[42:49]doesn't have the same fate as every other vice gerant of Allah

[42:52]subhanana wa ta'ala, he's being protected.

[42:54]Hence his occultation.

[42:57]The third category is so that the traditions tell us so that

[43:01]he doesn't have a pledge of allegiance towards uh the despots and

[43:05]the oppressors which was extracted from them from every previous uh prophet

[43:14]and or most prophets and vice.

[43:15]It was taken by force where they had to submit at least

[43:18]uh um uh you know apparently uh to the the uh oppressors

[43:26]of their day.

[43:25]The imam is kept uh and concealed so as not to have

[43:31]any pledge of allegiance to anybody um >> so that he wouldn't

[43:33]give legitimacy to the >> exact system.

[43:36]The fourth category of traditions tell us that it's uh for people

[43:39]or at least we can sort of uh reach this conclusion from

[43:43]a from a body of scripture that the imam is in occultation

[43:47]so that people are ready when he comes.

[43:51]Right?

[43:51]It is for uh the righteous from the immoral to be sifted.

[43:55]It is so that uh only the purest of the pure would

[43:59]remain.

[44:00]And so there has to be a set of conditions that must

[44:07]be established for that reappearance uh uh uh to to to be

[44:11]uh fruitful and to do uh to to to reach the objectives

[44:15]that have been set by Allah subhana wa ta'ala.

[44:18]But I'll I want to finish off this part of the discussion

[44:20]with another category of a hadith.

[44:22]Is there something you want to add?

[44:24]>> Yeah, I just wanted to add one thing.

[44:25]Humanity need to reach the stage of despair before the Imam comes.

[44:32]They need to have a thirst a yearning thirst for the im

[44:35]uh for the uh coming of the imam so that they could

[44:40]embrace him because every single prophet Allah was rejected.

[44:42]Allah doesn't want to impose religion on the people.

[44:46]He want the people to realize that this is the right the

[44:52]right thing to do.

[44:51]This is the only the only way basically.

[44:53]>> Exactly.

[44:54]And and actually this reminds me of an encounter I had with

[44:59]someone who had recently converted to Islam and become a Shia Muslim

[45:02]uh who said to me once uh um I was in the

[45:07]United States and he he came to me after one of the

[45:08]sessions and he said what makes you think that when the 12th

[45:16]Imam reappears that I would embrace him that Christians and Jews and

[45:20]Buddhists and Hindus and everybody else would welcome him with open arms.

[45:24]um you know, is he going to do this by force?

[45:27]Uh but then doesn't that defeat the purpose?

[45:30]And I and I said to him something along the lines of

[45:34]uh what you just said which is that people will be so

[45:37]desperate for divine intervention having tried every other theory, every other pathway,

[45:45]every other solution, every other system of government um to fix their

[45:51]problems and failed so miserably every uh uh um you know at

[45:55]every turn that they will be yearning for his reappearance.

[46:01]And so when he does, most people will in fact embrace him.

[46:04]They will they they they would have reached the state of despair

[46:10]um that you know the imam will will be their breath of

[46:13]fresh air.

[46:15]It's like someone who's been drowning and suddenly they rise to the

[46:18]surface of the water and they're able to take that first breath,

[46:23]the only hope.

[46:22]And so um this makes a lot of sense and it goes

[46:27]against some of the erroneous conceptions of the imam.

[46:32]I mean when you hear these politicians talking about Imam Mahi it's

[46:36]usually from a very negative perspective as you mentioned and one of

[46:39]the things you hear consistently from you know commentators and podcasters as

[46:44]well as politicians is that oh these people believe in uh a

[46:47]person who's going to come and he's going to conquer the world

[46:52]and he's going to kill everyone and our response to that is

[46:55]well first of all you've got it all wrong you don't understand

[46:59]um messianism and mahiism from Shia perspective.

[47:01]Uh but what you need to when you what you need to

[47:05]accept at least for the common person uh the politicians have their

[47:08]own agenda but for the common person you need to understand that

[47:12]the problems you're facing now are so systemic right they're so deeply

[47:16]embedded in the you know the DNA of uh the human experience

[47:23]that's failed that the imam will be that breath of fresh air.

[47:26]He is going to be the one that solves all of these

[47:30]all of these problems.

[47:30]And as you said, um, he's going to show how God's, uh,

[47:36]divine revelation is the only answer.

[47:39]It is the only solution, right?

[47:41]And people will willingly submit to him uh because they will see

[47:45]that so clearly.

[47:46]and and and we've seen the story before during the time of

[47:49]the prophet even though his his own people fought so uh fought

[47:55]him with hostility but then when he ruled and they uh they

[48:02]they noticed that he's different when he conquered Mecca they were all

[48:06]waiting for the for the prophet to come and butcher them and

[48:08]kill them but but the prophet uh with absolute clemency and forgiveness

[48:15]he pardoned all of them.

[48:16]This is why the fiercest of his enemies embraced him straight away.

[48:20]>> They say that u one man came to see the prophet.

[48:24]Uh so the prophet wouldn't distinguish himself in in the way he

[48:29]he used to wear.

[48:29]>> He didn't stand out.

[48:30]>> He didn't stand out.

[48:32]He comes inside and then they tell him that this is prophet

[48:33]Muhammad the master of creation.

[48:37]So he wants to speak but he stutters.

[48:42]He he couldn't speak.

[48:42]For the prophet said to him, Calm down.

[48:48]Calm down.

[48:48]I'm not a king like every other king.

[48:54]I have a mother just like your mother.

[48:56]Be comfortable.

[48:58]Don't stress.

[49:01]Uh so the way his enemies treated him after uh he presided

[49:05]over them after he became the head of the state uh uh

[49:11]would would you know speak volumes of how uh the enemies of

[49:15]Imam Mahi will see him after he he assumes power and becomes

[49:22]in the position of and on that note I want to mention

[49:27]one last hadith in which the prophet speaks about uh the wisdom

[49:32]behind the occultation.

[49:33]Um the holy messenger is speaking to Jabarb Abdahari one of his

[49:39]uh great companions and he says to him uh in reference to

[49:47]the Imam of the time and his occultation the imam says that

[49:49]this is a commandment among the commandments of God and it's concealed

[49:59]and hidden from his uh servants.

[50:05]Beware of doubting God's commandment and you know his will for having

[50:14]doubt is to reject God.

[50:16]Right?

[50:17][snorts] So the prophet essentially is saying that it's a secret that

[50:24]we're not supposed to know uh the you know uh the entirety

[50:27]of the wisdom behind the occultation.

[50:29]There are things that God is doing uh through the occultation that

[50:34]we'll probably never understand until the imam himself comes back.

[50:42]In fact, imam says this in plain terms.

[50:43]He says that the imam will go into occultation.

[50:51]uh every uh immoral person, every uh uh vile individual will have

[51:00]doubts about it.

[51:00]Then he says uh the the companion asks the imam, he says

[51:06]to him, but why does he go into occultation?

[51:10]The imam says, because of a reason that we're not allowed to

[51:15]reveal to you.

[51:16]There are things about this that we just simply don't know.

[51:21]then give me the wisdom behind this.

[51:26]The imam said to him, the the wisdom behind it is the

[51:36]same as the wisdom behind every other instance where one of God's

[51:41]prophets or vice gerants went into occultation.

[51:47]The wisdom behind this won't become apparent.

[51:51]It won't be revealed in full until the imam himself comes back.

[52:00]Uh then he brings an example.

[51:59]He says he says just like subhan Allah these stories in the

[52:12]Quran you read them and I think the way the prophet and

[52:19]theam relate those stories to our own lives and our own struggles

[52:23]is just beautiful.

[52:23]He says, "Just as did not tell MS why he killed that

[52:32]young boy, why he restored that uh wall that was about to

[52:35]collapse, why he damaged the ship that they uh used in order

[52:41]to uh receive refuge and and and reach safety." He didn't tell

[52:44]him all of those things until later on.

[52:47]The same thing applies to the Imam's uh occultation.

[52:50]You won't know the full reason until the Imam himself comes back.

[52:54]Which makes me think just, you know, what an incredible Eureka moment

[52:58]it's going to be when when you learn, oh my god, like

[53:02]this is why it happened.

[53:03]This is, you know, the benefit that we got out of this

[53:06]and so on and so forth.

[53:07]>> Say, let me draw a parallel between immedi Hussein.

[53:14]uh when the Imam was asked im Hussein about the reason why

[53:19]he's going to Kufa and rising against the uh tyrant of his

[53:22]time uh he told his brother so the imam didn't explain to

[53:33]Muhammad why he's rising and I think it's it's because >> he

[53:38]wasn't ready >> he wasn't ready he didn't have the mental capacity

[53:41]to explain to him all the benefits that were reaping from Hussein's

[53:46]martin.

[53:47]U it's not it's like explaining the internet as you mentioned in

[53:51]in one of the interviews explaining the internet to a two two-year-old.

[53:57]It's too complicated.

[53:58]It's multi-dimensional.

[53:58]There are so many layers to it.

[54:02]And I think one of the one of the reasons why the

[54:04]imam went into occultation as mentioned in the hadith of the imam

[54:11]and and nine other infallibles.

[54:12]It's like uh benefiting from the sun when it's hidden behind a

[54:17]cloud.

[54:18]Even though the sun is the center of the solar system, it's

[54:22]the source of all the energy of the solar system.

[54:26]Uh my role during my occultation is the role of the sun

[54:29]behind uh behind the behind the cloud.

[54:32]>> It's doing its thing.

[54:35]It's being incredibly indispensable for our very survival.

[54:37]It simply happens to be obscured by the cloud.

[54:42]to him.

[54:43]So, we're being filtered.

[54:43]Uh you might say that a lot of people have have died

[54:47]and you know they didn't have a chance to witness you might

[54:50]die before uh the imam's uh return >> but that's not to

[54:54]say that they haven't benefited from >> not not just that we

[54:59]have the ability to ask God to bring the imam during our

[55:02]time.

[55:02]So this is a chance that every uh the people of every

[55:08]era has been given.

[55:08]So we we can if if we wanted just like in the

[55:12]story of the Israelites.

[55:14]It's a lengthy hadith.

[55:14]Uh but the imam can come and it's our duty to do

[55:19]whatever we can to hasten in his reappearance.

[55:22]But we're not doing enough.

[55:24]We're not doing what we need to do to uh we're not

[55:29]ready for Allahh to bring the imam to us.

[55:30]>> That is a very critical point and uh I want to

[55:35]talk about it.

[55:36]We don't have a lot of time left, but I I I

[55:39]do want to talk about this.

[55:40]The question is, how should waiting translate into action?

[55:45]Um, we're supposed to wait.

[55:47]We're supposed to anticipate.

[55:48]We're supposed to prepare the grounds for the Imm's return, right?

[55:52]Uh, we all know that.

[55:56]But um maybe we could put some meat on the bones and

[55:59]talk about you know practical ways um how or or or what

[56:05]are we supposed to do in order to bring about the imam's

[56:10]rise and revolution.

[56:09]I think s waiting is about maintaining our faith.

[56:15]Uh it's about uh doing whatever we can.

[56:19]Uh one one scholar once said it's like um it's like when

[56:23]you're drowning you need to push and kick and do whatever you

[56:30]can just to remain afloat and not drown.

[56:31]This is the biggest challenge.

[56:34]Waiting is not just >> that's a great illustration to to sit

[56:36]down and wait for the imam to come.

[56:39]We've been bombarded left, right, and center to snatch, as you mentioned,

[56:45]our faith from us.

[56:47]And we need to maintain and this is the the biggest challenge

[56:50]that we we're facing.

[56:51]>> I the way I would describe it is to say that

[56:56]we need to become spiritual reservists for the imam's return and revolution.

[57:02]A reserveist in the army is someone who is uh constantly on

[57:09]high alert.

[57:11]Even though a lot of these reserveists in in in most countries

[57:15]uh they they lead ordinary lives, they have their day jobs, they

[57:19]have their families, they have, you know, their bills to pay and

[57:27]their chores to uh to execute.

[57:28]Um but >> Exactly.

[57:29]They have their duffel bag.

[57:30]They have their, you know, essentials.

[57:32]They have uh uh more important I think than the tools they

[57:38]need uh in the army is is the mindset that I am

[57:42]ready at a moment's notice.

[57:42]If I'm notified that tomorrow you need to go into battle, I'm

[57:46]ready to do that.

[57:49]My mindset is ready.

[57:49]My life is ready.

[57:52]um and I and I haven't left my my faith, my strength,

[57:58]my belief in in defending my country and and whatn not.

[58:00]Uh in this case, uh we're not called to go to battle

[58:05]or to uh you know to to physically fight, uh an enemy

[58:09]right now.

[58:10]What we are required to have is the mindset of a spiritual

[58:16]reservist who can be called at a moment's notice and they'd be

[58:18]ready to do that.

[58:20]The question is, are we like that?

[58:22]I think for the most part we're not um if the if

[58:23]the call is made tomorrow if we hear the Imam's voice which

[58:28]traditions tell us that it'll be a voice that'll be echoed throughout

[58:30]the world is one of the signs of the Imam's reappearance everyone

[58:36]will know.

[58:35]It's not like the imam comes and people are still confused.

[58:39]Is he the imam?

[58:39]Is he not the imam?

[58:43]Every single person will know.

[58:44]And so uh when that call is heard when the imam says

[58:49]uh I am the one who's been promised by every prophet, every

[58:55]messenger.

[58:55]Am I ready to just drop everything and join his mission?

[58:59]I think most people are not.

[59:00]And so, uh, to be a reserveist is the broad title.

[59:05]Now, think about the steps you need to take in order to

[59:09]be ready when the moment comes.

[59:10]And we have references in history like in the story of Imam

[59:12]Hussein.

[59:13]The people of Kufa wanted him to come and they wrote to

[59:15]him.

[59:16]They sent him 15,000 letters, but they weren't ready.

[59:20]And this is why you find that there is a huge difference

[59:22]between loyal people that uh were uh uh preparing for this moment

[59:32]way before uh the imams move towards Kufa.

[59:37]People like uh and the people that thought that they were ready

[59:43]but when the imam came they abandoned him.

[59:46]They say that when he received the letter of M Hussein uh

[59:50]he immediately left his house and left everything behind uh and he

[59:56]met with Muslim uh in the alleyways of Kufa.

[60:01]Uh Muslim was carrying a bag with him.

[60:05]So Habib says to him, "Uh where are you going?" He said,

[60:09]"Uh I'm I'm going to to take a bath to shower." uh

[60:13]shower facilities back then weren't inside the house, communal bathroom.

[60:17]So he said he said uh you want to go to the

[60:22]bathroom while the imam of your time is calling you um join

[60:27]me cuz I'm going to and he immediately decided to join.

[60:30]I don't think any of us has uh the ability to do

[60:35]this if our faith is not strong enough and our connection with

[60:38]the imam is not strong enough.

[60:40]>> Have too many attachments to our material possessions.

[60:45]When we are too attached to, you know, my house, my car,

[60:50]my clothes, my belongings, my watch, my glasses, you know, whatever it

[60:57]might be.

[60:56]when I'm too attached to those things and I struggle so hard

[61:03]to attain them, uh it becomes exponentially more difficult to just drop

[61:08]it all and join the Imam's mission, which is exactly what the

[61:11]imam expects from us.

[61:14]Um, and this is why we've been taught to uh to repeat

[61:18]the statement every single day to recite and repeat the statement in

[61:26]the dua.

[61:25]Yeah, we find this expression in multiple uh duas and and traditions

[61:30]including uh quite interestingly in the z as well as Abbas and

[61:38]I think that's what that's what made Abbas Exactly.

[61:43]He's he's the uh he's the icon that we should look up

[61:45]to when it comes to supporting the Imam uh of our time

[61:50]the way he supported the Imam of his time.

[61:54]Um but but yeah, we have traditions if I'm not mistaken uh

[62:00]about how paying your your dues and your alms like homes and

[62:05]whatnot and how that decreases the attachment we have to our material

[62:09]wealth and and makes I think the hadith specifically talks about how

[62:14]it'll make uh the moment of dying so much easier.

[62:18]death is so difficult partly because not just the physical pain but

[62:22]the fact that you're losing everything that you spent your entire life

[62:26]to acquire and so when you when you help the poor when

[62:31]you look after those who are less fortunate when you pay yours

[62:34]and whatnot um then obviously that decreases the attachment it loosens it

[62:39]and it makes it easier to just you know join the imam's

[62:43]mission uh and uh on that note I think we will end

[62:48]this session If we uh have the chance uh inshallah maybe we

[62:51]could do uh a part two of this discussion.

[62:55]I think it requires more than just one episode.

[63:00]Uh but we will conclude with dua inshallah.

[63:12]Foreign Muhammad.

[63:54]Send

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